Where will ACA D328J pilots go next?

[P38JLightning]

DoPilots

I can't see Delta management OR the pilots wanting to fund YET ANOTHER LCC east coast start up by providing needed revenue during the start up/brand building process.

One thing no one considers in this whole debate is that no one has to fly the DoJets.

Sure, Delta isn't going to lose 33 jets worth of "lift" all at once, but who says when they drop ACA they will still use DoJets?

The Delta (management) contract with ACA says Delta can drop them, for any reason, with 6 months notice. The only catch is Delta is stuck with the leases, or if they're paid for, must buy them. But in both cases the Delta contract stipulates at "Fair market value".

Now a new DoJet by AvCraft (or whoever it is) this year will go for about 11M. How much is a ragged out one worth?

And don't forget, just like the RFP phantom jets, no specific jets have to be a specific type. Just like Chautauqua can "convert" the "awarded" jets to EMB's likewise can Delta easily get out of operating the DoJets.

Either sell them to China or some other buyer and get some of those "self financing" EMB's or CRJ's or negotiate a deal with EMB or Bombardier to get you out of the leases and into a shiny NEW RJ that doesn't actualy suck.

That's what Comair did with the early retirement of the EMB-120's. They flew to Arkansas and some ended up sitting there for a long time while being "owned" by Bombardier. They got us out of the leases on favorable terms and into their jets faster, again, on favorable terms.

So there's no reason anyone has to operate them for anyone. I'm sure both EMB and Bombardier would be more than happy to get Delta out of the leases and fill their order books, and the net cost to mother D would be WAY less than trying to operate those pieces of junk. During the 6 months notice, or shortly after, each "portfolio" carrier would only have to take 8 or 9 jets to backfill the total loss of the ACA fleet.

Of course this would require Delta management actualy plan ahead and run their airline. Maybe they're too busy with pilot pay issues, new uniforms, GG coffee chats within Delta's "people department" and trying to impress the brandy sinffers at the ATA/RAA parties. Yep, maybe Skyway will end up with them afterall.

 

[acaTerry]

Where the he11 is General Lee when you need him?

 

[General Lee]

Believe it or not, I just got done with a three day today. Yes, I am still flying, but I do look at the boards in the crew lounge--but choose not to respond on those computers......

As far as the Dojos are concerned---I think Delta would make a proposal to Comair or someone else---tell them they could have them for lower rates etc.....I wouldn't put that past them....

I honestly don't know what they will do....But whatever it is, it obviously will be the Mainline pilots' fault....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

It is my understanding that Comair has already spun-up training for the DO-Jet. Some of their instructors have already completed the ground school on the aircraft and are waiting for the word to start classes.

What will happen to the ACA pilots? Look at the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. They should go to Comair with their seniority. I am sure that all Comair pilots support the proper application of this policy, especially after the Comair, ASA and DAL PID mess.

 

[captainv]

our people in Flight Standards are doing a lot of planning, on how to incorporate the DoJet and create an ATL crew base to name a few, but at this point it's all contingency planning.

basically, they want to be ahead of the game if Delta makes a decision, but so far we've received no indication that we're getting the DoJet. We've also received no indication that we're getting an ATL base, despite the large prescence there.

if the rumor mill is any guide, it sounds like ATL is out now...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

ALPA merger policy

"What will happen to the ACA pilots? Look at the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. They should go to Comair with their seniority."

This is NOT ALPA merger/fragmentation policy. (ask the USAir/United pilots!)

ALPA's current merger policy deals with career expectations and "that no side shall receive a windfall at the expense of the other".

This was changed at the national level by the UAL pilots who were desperately afraid that some 17 year USAir 737 F/O might jump over them in a meger scenario and steal a 757 captain position.

Seniority is taken into account, of course, but it is NOT current merger policy.

I would be interested to find out if there are any labor protective provisions in the ACA contract such as the Allegheny/Mohawk LPPs which would provide that "IF X Percentage of the ACA fleet is sold or transferred then the pilots go with the airplanes".

If no such language exists then this could simply be a sale of assets and, as such, may not include labor at all.

It would most likely be in the purchaser's best interest to GET current/qualified Dornier crews... which, of course, gives the purchaser's pilot group some leverage in negotiations.

It just isn't as simple as saying "this is a merger and the pilots will go date-of-hire". ALPA does have a merger policy but -- at least so far -- the transfer of Dornier assets does not seem to fit that description.

 

[House_X]

It is my understanding that Comair has already spun-up training for the DO-Jet. Some of their instructors have already completed the ground school on the aircraft and are waiting for the word to start classes.

What will happen to the ACA pilots? Look at the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. They should go to Comair with their seniority. I am sure that all Comair pilots support the proper application of this policy, especially after the Comair, ASA and DAL PID mess.

Sleepy,

That rumor is unsubstantiated...Comair isn't implementing any action what-so-ever on the Dornier...nor do they want them. As far as our pilot group...a rift is being formed as we speak as far as the fate of our Delta side...where WE (Dornier pilots) SHOULD GO is not up to you, ALPA, Comair or ACA.,..it will be up to each INDIVIDUAL DORNIER PILOT.

If the jet goes, each INDIVIDUAL ACA Dornier pilot will have a choice...and it seems most of us, if not all, will choose Independance.

 

[surplus1]

Fourloughed Again

You are basically correct, except I don't think that it was the UAL pilots that changed the merger policy. Unless I missed something, the current policy was rewritten in 1998 due mainly to the efforts of the Delta MEC. The rewrite had the support of UAL, NWA and USAirways at the time.

Essentially, ALPA merger policy is whatever the Executive Council says it is at any given point in time. Whomever has the political clout to sway the Executive Council will have the merger policy "interpreted" in its favor. That was no accident.

If I'm not mistaken the ACA contract does include some provisions that relate to asset transfer although I'm not certain exactly what they are. The LPP's tend to sound nice, but its a classic case of the bark being bigger than the bite.

In the event of the transfer of those assets to CMR (which I doubt), I would hope that the CMR MEC will act to ensure that the seniority of any transferring ACA pilots is fully protected. However, I think the ACA contract gives ACA pilots the option to remain at ACA if that is their desire. In view of the promise of Independence it is doubtful that many would want to come to Comair or for that matter, go anywhere else.

The General is right though, if ACA is forced to give up that flying against its will, it will be the fault of the mainline pilots. That BS clause in their contract is the very same type of clause that ultimately forced the creation of Freedom and subsequently Republic, courtesy of ALPA and the AAA MEC.

 

[jobear]

Nice to see a discusion on a topic that doesn't degenerate into my Airlines better than yours.
As to where they go who knows but I believe the choice will have to be soon. Just the logistics of training the crews is a Huge outlay,and are the gates operated by ACA at the outstations or are they DAL employees? Are the Maintenance personnel, crew schedulers and gate people in CVG staying with ACA.

Thoughts.........

Jobear

 

[On Your Six]

Is it clear that Delta would WANT to keep the DoJet? Does it earn its keep relatively well? I don't know much of the particulars, but is it possible that Delta could dump the Do-Jet (or maybe sell them to China or Skyway) for something else? I have heard rumors about a bigger airplane like the Dash 8-400 being brought on board (maybe to replace the ATR) and used out of ATL.

Do we know that Delta likes the airplane and sees a role for it going forward?


Sleepy,

Your statement for the General is a bit unfair. Yeah, I guess you would have NO PROBLEM outsourcing flying to Commutair or CHQ - no problem relinquishing some of your hard-fought scope. With 1000+ DAL pilots still on the street, further deterioration of contractual scope is likely a very touchy subject. I am sure you would defend it too if you were in the same situation...

 

[House_X]

Nice to see a discusion on a topic that doesn't degenerate into my Airlines better than yours.
As to where they go who knows but I believe the choice will have to be soon. Just the logistics of training the crews is a Huge outlay,and are the gates operated by ACA at the outstations or are they DAL employees? Are the Maintenance personnel, crew schedulers and gate people in CVG staying with ACA.

Thoughts.........

Jobear

Good questions:

The Delta outstations are DGS, Delta or Comair...most of the stations we fly to are Comair stations. ACA does not manage any outstations for Delta. At CVG, Comair runs the gates and ramp. ACA basically has flight ops, MX, and some station personnel in management postions...but basically, Comair runs the show...and they do a good job. BOS is Delta mainline. Where MX, and the station people goes is anybody's guess.

And yes...it's nice to see a civilized discussion on a hot topic...

 

[sleepy]

Is it clear that Delta would WANT to keep the DoJet? Does it earn its keep relatively well? I don't know much of the particulars, but is it possible that Delta could dump the Do-Jet (or maybe sell them to China or Skyway) for something else? I have heard rumors about a bigger airplane like the Dash 8-400 being brought on board (maybe to replace the ATR) and used out of ATL.

Do we know that Delta likes the airplane and sees a role for it going forward?


Sleepy,

Your statement for the General is a bit unfair. Yeah, I guess you would have NO PROBLEM outsourcing flying to Commutair or CHQ - no problem relinquishing some of your hard-fought scope. With 1000+ DAL pilots still on the street, further deterioration of contractual scope is likely a very touchy subject. I am sure you would defend it too if you were in the same situation...

I did not make any statement for the General. What are you talking about?

I heard it from a Comair pilot the other day that Comair instructors were already trained on the Do-jet. I don't know one way or the other, but that is what I was told.

 

[Always deferred]

As a Dornier pilot, I would like to weigh in on a couple things.

General Lee, please tell me how ACA flying the Dorniers while operating as IA would in anyway hurt your job security? It's not like they're going to put an Airbus on the CVG-DAY round. They are 2 different entities..DLC and Indy Air.

And as for the argument that "why should Delta fund a competitor", don't they already do that albeit indirectly with Skywest, and CHit, and NW and CO???
I'm sure you guys will feel lots of sympathy for your fellow ALPA pilots should Delta park the FRJ s and ACA furloughs 25% of its pilots.
And one other thing...why do you guys never wave? I mean it's not a big deal but do you really feel that superior to us?
Sorry frustrated rant over.

 

[sleepy]

They can't wave and ask for a wind check at the same time.

 

[General Lee]

Always deferred,

First of all, I am personally not against you or your ACA pilot group. I can understand your feelings----and the possible loss of jobs is worrisome---look at our loss of 1060 current pilots. I have been an advocate for our own furloughs and I would not want anyone to go through that process. That being said, I can also understand our union's (Dalpa's) decision to not help our "competitors". Yes, IA currently does not really compete with DL---but that may change when you get your 30 Airbus aircraft. As far as your analogy with Skywest and CHQ---they have not set up their own LCC to undercut fares and keep them low---resulting in extra losses for us. Can you gaurantee that IA will not ever fly their A319s to ATL or to JFK etc....? If they ever do, should we then pull the plug? I would think that Dalpa would do the same thing to Skywest or CHQ if they wanted to start up a LCC that would hurt us eventually in some way. We own Comair and ASA--and in reality they should be the ones flying all of our DCI flying--so we could keep all of the profits.

If it comes to pulling the plug on your Dojos or DCI contract---I would hope that there would be some way the Dojo pilots could keep their seats and go over to Comair or whoever gets the Dojos---so minimal jobs are lost. The tough decision will be for those Dojo pilots---to go or to stay. I would hope that many would NOT lose their jobs. But remember--I really have no idea what Dalpa will do--and I am not a negotiator. Something may be negotiated and the status quo would remain.


As far as Delta guys not waving at you---I think you are generalizing a bit. That is like saying all RJ pilots are "straight out of college" in age. Sure, there are some jerks---and I remember saying to myself in the early 90's when I was flying Brasilias the same thing, "Those Delta guys never acknowledge me when I pass them in the concourse." Now I am one---and believe it or not---I actually almost ALWAYS get their acknowlegement now---amazing. Not everyone is like that---and since '96 more civilian pilots have been hired---which gave us more of a "human " feeling. I think overall it has gotten better--but there are still those mean types out there. I personally enjoy talking to all types of pilots, and I always try to give my full attention and ask about what is happening at THEIR airline---not just mine. If you have flown on one of our jumpseats lately and I was the FO---then you know that I was mainly asking YOU about your aircraft, new routes, etc... I absolutely do wave---and I also come over and try to talk and see what is going on. I talk to a lot of your guys in CVG at the "Great Steak Escape" between flights---and I have even been invited to sit down with some of your guys and they told me about the FRJ---and their 7 leg days.... As I have said before--I feel lucky to have this job and to be still flying, and I do not have a superiority complex. But, I still have an opinion and I display it often on this board. I hope this clears this issue up a bit. Take care.

Bye Bye---General Lee