Where will ACA D328J pilots go next?

[On Your Six]

Someone may have already asked this question. But, what will happen to the ACA pilots who fly the Dorkjet after Independence Air starts up in the summer (and Delta presumably cancels its relationship with ACA)? Will the senior guys be able to upgrade to the CRJS and Airbus aircraft? What about the Jetstreams and their crews? Will the D328Js be transferred to Comair WITH the crews? If so, how do the ACA pilots affected feel about that prospect?

No disrespect to the ACA pilots out there - I wish all of you guys luck and am just curious about the next steps after Indy Air starts up...

 

[GogglesPisano]

This is the $100,000 question at ACA. We will begin Airbus service in Nov, at that time DALPA will file a grievance and it will be between DAL and DALPA. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the DoJets will be gone eventually, as they don't fit into the Independence Air business plan and don't generate much revenue.

ACA-ALPA will fight tooth and nail for their seniority rights, we are one pilot group. Unfortunately, if they do go (over the course of six months) I don't see how we cannot furlough.

In a nutshell: the loss of the 20+ J41's will be offset short term by a training bubble and long term by increased utilization of the 87 CRJ's. No furloughs.

The loss of 33 DoJets can be offset by the addition of 25 Airbus. The problem is that if the Airbus are delivered over an 18 month period, and the DoJets are removed over a six month period, we wil theoretically be fat on pilots for about one year.

That being said the long-awaited divorce with UAL will begin in June with 30 CRJ's being released back to ACA. These aircraft will be painted and new leather seats installed. Expect Independence Air to begin in mid-June.

Our relationship with UAL will end in August.

Good luck to UAL. Good luck to all the other UAX carriers. And most of all, good luck to Independence Air (we will ALL neeed it.)

 

[46Driver]

Its quite interesting, more than a mere $100,000 question - I would say ONE MILLLLLLION DOLLARS.

DALPA will file a grievance, however there are 2 parts to that.

1) Delta is losing money hand over fist and the last thing the Delta pilots want is for the company to go bankrupt.

2) DALPA's scope clause (from what I heard) says that Delta will not ACQUIRE a Connection carrier who operates aircraft bigger than 70 seats - it doesn't say anything about a current Connection carrier going out and getting aircraft bigger than 70 seats. Whether or not that loophole holds water, I don't know.

Waiting to see what happens, and how much ACA-ALPA fights for our one list and seniority rights. Make no mistake, a few of the UEX side pilots have been very vocal about the Delta Connection side pilots being sold off with the DoJets so they can move up and take the Airbus (we have quite a few senior guys in the DoJet.) Its gonna get ugly.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Waiting to see what happens, and how much ACA-ALPA fights for our one list and seniority rights. Make no mistake, a few of the UEX side pilots have been very vocal about the Delta Connection side pilots being sold off with the DoJets so they can move up and take the Airbus (we have quite a few senior guys in the DoJet.) Its gonna get ugly.

Talks about eating your own. Geez, that is real ugly. This industry really brings out the best in people, huh?

 

[vc10]

2) DALPA's scope clause (from what I heard) says that Delta will not ACQUIRE a Connection carrier who operates aircraft bigger than 70 seats - it doesn't say anything about a current Connection carrier going out and getting aircraft bigger than 70 seats. Whether or not that loophole holds water, I don't know.

Not correct. It prevents any carrier that flies jets 71 seats or greater from flying for Delta, period.

 

[House_X]

Its quite interesting, more than a mere $100,000 question - I would say ONE MILLLLLLION DOLLARS.

DALPA will file a grievance, however there are 2 parts to that.

1) Delta is losing money hand over fist and the last thing the Delta pilots want is for the company to go bankrupt.

2) DALPA's scope clause (from what I heard) says that Delta will not ACQUIRE a Connection carrier who operates aircraft bigger than 70 seats - it doesn't say anything about a current Connection carrier going out and getting aircraft bigger than 70 seats. Whether or not that loophole holds water, I don't know.

Waiting to see what happens, and how much ACA-ALPA fights for our one list and seniority rights. Make no mistake, a few of the UEX side pilots have been very vocal about the Delta Connection side pilots being sold off with the DoJets so they can move up and take the Airbus (we have quite a few senior guys in the DoJet.) Its gonna get ugly.

That's why I'm getting my emergency reserve back-up plan a, b, c ,d etc. together. Holding off on major purchases and paying off bills. Your right about things getting ugly...already happening on the alpa board. The numbers don't add up, for staffing indy air if the Dornier goes tango uniform or transtioned to another carrier.

What about you guys at Skyway? I know there's a lot of noise going on over there about CVG...

 

[crashpad]

ACA is the great success story of the new millenium!
They did what others only wished they would have (and may still); stood up for themselves, gave UAL the thumbs down and said let's grab some profit like the LCCs'.
They'll be competeing with the majors on a major level, and while their employees are risking much more job security, they will be rewarded 100 fold if they succeed! This is fun to watch!

 

[MetroSheriff]

ACA is the great success story of the new millenium!

I hope you are correct. Right now, however, that remains to be seen.

They'll be competeing with the majors on a major level...

Not including employee compensation, of course.

This is fun to watch!

Indeed!

 

[Always deferred]

Looks like us DoJet guys are gonna have to start the FRJDC...

 

[mckpickle]

Not correct. It prevents any carrier that flies jets 71 seats or greater from flying for Delta, period.

Ri RI RI RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!
Exept if company A wholey owns companys' B C and D.

At which time Company B may fly for Company W and Company D may have XX large jets......



IE... Republic Airways. wholey owned by Wexford corp and affiliated with everyones favorite......CHQ.


I say if the dork jets go, than so don't CHQs Embs!

 

[DoinTime]

Ri RI RI RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!
Exept if company A wholey owns companys' B C and D.

At which time Company B may fly for Company W and Company D may have XX large jets......



IE... Republic Airways. wholey owned by Wexford corp and affiliated with everyones favorite......CHQ.


I say if the dork jets go, than so don't CHQs Embs!

US Airways and Delta do not share the same contract or scope language. Just because USA's contract doesn't scope their regional partners from the holding company on down doesn't mean that Delta's is the same way.

 

[mckpickle]

I know, what I'm saying is just because ACA doesn't have 19 diferent sub companies under its parent than it has to give up flying for Delta. Where CHW has Wexford which owns Republic, CHQ and Shuttle. All owned by the same company but they don't have to give up flying for Delta when they get the EMB-170.

Doesn't seem fair to me. Then again it doesn't seem fair that wholey owneds get screwed!

 

[On Your Six]

A lot of great replies. Two follow-up questions:

1. Would the ACA Dojo pilots be averse to going to Comair if the Dojos are assigned/transferred to Comair? Or would Comair pilots transfer to the Dojos if they were to get them?

2. How do you like flying the Dorkjet? I flew on one a few weeks back and I was pretty impressed with the unbelievable takeoff (like a cannonball) and the flightdeck - although it seemed to hover in flight...

 

[GogglesPisano]

A lot of great replies. Two follow-up questions:

1. Would the ACA Dojo pilots be averse to going to Comair if the Dojos are assigned/transferred to Comair? Or would Comair pilots transfer to the Dojos if they were to get them?

2. How do you like flying the Dorkjet? I flew on one a few weeks back and I was pretty impressed with the unbelievable takeoff (like a cannonball) and the flightdeck - although it seemed to hover in flight...

I've flown both the CRJ and he DoJet and hands down the CRJ is a superior aircraft. The avionics in the DoJet may seem more advanced but I thought it has less quality (red X on your MFD for three seconds sort of scares me.)

With the exception of the takeoff and climb and the somewhat simpler systems, the CRJ wins hands down.

And of course the most important thing for a pilot the seat. It hurts just thinking about those metal seats ...

 

[vc10]

Ri RI RI RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!
Exept if company A wholey owns companys' B C and D.

At which time Company B may fly for Company W and Company D may have XX large jets......



IE... Republic Airways. wholey owned by Wexford corp and affiliated with everyones favorite......CHQ.


I say if the dork jets go, than so don't CHQs Embs!

That's correct. But having separate subsidiaries is expensive (lots of duplication) and the 328JET operation doesn't generate much revenue and would be, frankly, a distraction in the tremendous battle that ACA faces.

 

[P38JLightning]

DoPilots

I can't see Delta management OR the pilots wanting to fund YET ANOTHER LCC east coast start up by providing needed revenue during the start up/brand building process.

One thing no one considers in this whole debate is that no one has to fly the DoJets.

Sure, Delta isn't going to lose 33 jets worth of "lift" all at once, but who says when they drop ACA they will still use DoJets?

The Delta (management) contract with ACA says Delta can drop them, for any reason, with 6 months notice. The only catch is Delta is stuck with the leases, or if they're paid for, must buy them. But in both cases the Delta contract stipulates at "Fair market value".

Now a new DoJet by AvCraft (or whoever it is) this year will go for about 11M. How much is a ragged out one worth?

And don't forget, just like the RFP phantom jets, no specific jets have to be a specific type. Just like Chautauqua can "convert" the "awarded" jets to EMB's likewise can Delta easily get out of operating the DoJets.

Either sell them to China or some other buyer and get some of those "self financing" EMB's or CRJ's or negotiate a deal with EMB or Bombardier to get you out of the leases and into a shiny NEW RJ that doesn't actualy suck.

That's what Comair did with the early retirement of the EMB-120's. They flew to Arkansas and some ended up sitting there for a long time while being "owned" by Bombardier. They got us out of the leases on favorable terms and into their jets faster, again, on favorable terms.

So there's no reason anyone has to operate them for anyone. I'm sure both EMB and Bombardier would be more than happy to get Delta out of the leases and fill their order books, and the net cost to mother D would be WAY less than trying to operate those pieces of junk. During the 6 months notice, or shortly after, each "portfolio" carrier would only have to take 8 or 9 jets to backfill the total loss of the ACA fleet.

Of course this would require Delta management actualy plan ahead and run their airline. Maybe they're too busy with pilot pay issues, new uniforms, GG coffee chats within Delta's "people department" and trying to impress the brandy sinffers at the ATA/RAA parties. Yep, maybe Skyway will end up with them afterall.

 

[acaTerry]

Where the he11 is General Lee when you need him?

 

[General Lee]

Believe it or not, I just got done with a three day today. Yes, I am still flying, but I do look at the boards in the crew lounge--but choose not to respond on those computers......

As far as the Dojos are concerned---I think Delta would make a proposal to Comair or someone else---tell them they could have them for lower rates etc.....I wouldn't put that past them....

I honestly don't know what they will do....But whatever it is, it obviously will be the Mainline pilots' fault....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

It is my understanding that Comair has already spun-up training for the DO-Jet. Some of their instructors have already completed the ground school on the aircraft and are waiting for the word to start classes.

What will happen to the ACA pilots? Look at the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy. They should go to Comair with their seniority. I am sure that all Comair pilots support the proper application of this policy, especially after the Comair, ASA and DAL PID mess.

 

[captainv]

our people in Flight Standards are doing a lot of planning, on how to incorporate the DoJet and create an ATL crew base to name a few, but at this point it's all contingency planning.

basically, they want to be ahead of the game if Delta makes a decision, but so far we've received no indication that we're getting the DoJet. We've also received no indication that we're getting an ATL base, despite the large prescence there.

if the rumor mill is any guide, it sounds like ATL is out now...