Where was ALPA?

[Boeingman]

The next time you post your "I don't understand how ALPA works within the confines of the RLA and the fact that ALPA doesn't control the company combined with ALPA hasn't lived up to my expectations, even though those expectations are unrealistic" drivel....

I'll just see what Lear thinks....he does a good job saying what you can't....

Again, I've got lots of ALPA criticism. ALPA isn't a wonder drug or silver bullit. One of ALPA's faults is guys like you... too angry and bitter to be effective. You're like a Brit in 1940's London complaining about being stuck in the tube with watered down tea, complaining that Churchill doesn't give a dang about you, all while Nazi bombs are raining on your head...

Hey man, the airline industry is in shambles right now. All of us are taking hits, but all you got is criticism... And noisemakers like you don't get invited to the table where change is made... they stay out in the parking lot.

So unless you change your Modus Operandi all you got is anger and bitter. If ALPA is useless, then replace it and I'll support the new regime. The thing is, we got to have representation. Without it, we are finished. If anyone things the concessionary agreements of the past four years would have been better without representation then you are dumber than dumb. But you are an airline pilot...you can't be that dumb.

Everybody brings something to the table, all you got is negativity and no solutions.. change your MO and invoke positive change....

I was going to respond to your tired diatribe, but seriously why bother? Guys like you are the real threat to the union. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil about the ALPA. Just sit back, blame the membership for all it ills.

You and Occum can rest easy.. I am not bitter or angry. I am disgusted. The nice thing about my personal financial situation is I don't care what happens to my airline job....or yours for that matter.

BTW sport, I spent 25 months on a picket line trying to effect change within
the industry and union. Don't you ever tell me that I haven't done nothing to get involved or you unrealistic drivel mantra. Take your pompus kiss ass groveling attitude and go blow yourself. Deal?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

And I thought my coffee was bitter this morning....

ALPA is the pilots.

The direction "ALPA" takes is the direction the pilots at that airline choose to take.

ALPA bashing is like my dog barking at the television...he doesn't understand it, but he's loud nonetheless.

That same logic can be applied to the citizens of this country when it comes to government. While the citizens in theory can influence even determine, the powers that be (purposely) stack the deck against them. Probably explains the bashing since history is a good indicator that the pilots will lose.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I was going to respond to your tired diatribe, but seriously why bother? Guys like you are the real threat to the union. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil about the ALPA. Just sit back, blame the membership for all it ills.

You and Occum can rest easy.. I am not bitter or angry. I am disgusted. The nice thing about my personal financial situation is I don't care what happens to my airline job....or yours for that matter.

BTW sport, I spent 25 months on a picket line trying to effect change within
the industry and union. Don't you ever tell me that I haven't done nothing to get involved or you unrealistic drivel mantra. Take your pompus kiss ass groveling attitude and go blow yourself. Deal?

YAWN....

So now you are no longer discussing the issue, rather switching to personal attacks....

Too diffilcult to hear you from the parking lot.....

What else you got? Anything positive?

 

[Lear70]

The direction "ALPA" takes is the direction the pilots at that airline choose to take.

Actually, that's not ENTIRELY correct. In many cases, ALPA NATIONAL directs the policies and negotiating committees at individual airlines. Yes, an individual MEC is allowed to do certain things on its own but, in the end, ALPA National has veto authority over ANY T.A. and the MEC's actions MUST fall in line with NATIONAL's policies.

This is where the problem lies... at the TOP. This is ALSO why you don't see many pilots staying a long time in any committee unless it's the Grievance (Contract Compliance) Committee or the Negotiating Committee. A lot of pilots get involved, just to get disgusted that, by themselves, they are unable to affect any REAL change in the system.

As I said before, I'd REALLY LOVE to see a more aggressive stance by ALPA National that would then direct the individual MEC's to get more aggressive. The main reason we have management pushing pilots so hard is that management knows they'll probably get away with it. It's just continued from airline to airline to airline that, rather than draw a line in the sand, each airline has conceded ground until a T.A. is reached. With THIS strategy of "retreat and wait for better days", we're looking at RJ's at feeders and Wide Bodies at majors and NOTHING IN BETWEEN!

ALPA bashing is like my dog barking at the television...he doesn't understand it, but he's loud nonetheless.

That's actually pretty funny and, for the most part, quite accurate. I can't remember how many times I've heard pilots bashing ALPA who haven't even read the bylaws, much less tried to get involved and change anything. I was actually just in the crew room a few days ago and one of our senior pilots was SCREAMING right up in a reps face that he had been "misrepresented by ALPA years ago", but probably didn't have a clue about how the system really worked.

We are, unfortunately, stuck with what we have at the moment as there's no viable alternative to ALPA and, for the most part, no carrier is willing to "take one for the team", but rather let them chisel away at us every 4 or 5 years.

It doesn't help that airline management can't run a profitable airline either (hard to ask for raises when your company is losing millions every quarter), but if YOU made six figures a year running an airline into bankruptcy every 4-6 years, why would you stop until you were MADE to by federal law?

There's LOTS of problems with our profession, not "just" ALPA.

 

[Boeingman]

Duane? Is that you?

YAWN....

So now you are no longer discussing the issue, rather switching to personal attacks....

Too diffilcult to hear you from the parking lot.....

What else you got? Anything positive?

You done blowing yourself already? I already gave you answers on this site before and you ignored them. You are just to much of an ALPA apologist to admit or see another point of view of the dismal failures and what really needs to be done to right side this comedy called the ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You done blowing yourself already? I already gave you answers on this site before and you ignored them. You are just to much of an ALPA apologist to admit or see another point of view of the dismal failures and what really needs to be done to right side this comedy called the ALPA.

Must of missed your answers when I was getting a full frontal attack on my personality by your blitzkreig....

Can you link, post or refer to them. I'd like to give you the benefit....

Need to see not only answers but the pragmatic application of them... (ie. HOW will your answers be put into action...)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The main reason we have management pushing pilots so hard is that management knows they'll probably get away with it. It's just continued from airline to airline to airline that, rather than draw a line in the sand, each airline has conceded ground until a T.A. is reached.

There's LOTS of problems with our profession, not "just" ALPA.

The first paragraph Lear, I think has to do with the RLA and fly it and grieve it.... It is the political culture set up in this country that favors companies over labor. i.e capitalism....

ALPA likes to consider itself a professional association and not a thug union. Many are calling for thug tactics.. maybe they are justified, but if you want to sit down formally with the Cabnit Secreteries and Congressman, you can't be precieved as a thug union....

It is a MO that ALPA has choosen and it is of course open to criticism...

Finally, on your comment about National signing TA's.... When Midway in RDU was on its last leg doing USAIR service, the latest TA was rejected by DW because it came into conflict with Mid Atlantic... In this case DW didn't lower the bar... he sacrificed a small pilot group for a larger one.

Anyone got the balls to do that....?

 

[Lear70]

The first paragraph Lear, I think has to do with the RLA and fly it and grieve it.... It is the political culture set up in this country that favors companies over labor. i.e capitalism....

Absolutely. That's why when we DO have the opportunity to engage in self-help, we need to EXERCISE that opportunity or we look weak to our opposition (management). Draw the line and HOLD the line. No last-minute concessionary bullsh*t deals. You guys DESERVE the 70-seaters on YOUR property; MAKE IT HAPPEN!!

One of our most junior pilots, a very capable airman and ex-Marine said once, "This is a war. One without guns and ammunition but a war just the same. Management plans YEARS in advance and then, when we're doing battle on the front lines with a SPECIFIC problem (Scope), they come around and attack your flank, where you're not looking."

He's absolutely correct. This is a war, and we're fighting not for our lives, but for our life's work, the career we will spend the majority of our life working at. Personally, I'd like to win the war, and exercising our ability to attack when we have it (self help when authorized) is the ONLY way to make it happen.

ALPA likes to consider itself a professional association and not a thug union. Many are calling for thug tactics.. maybe they are justified, but if you want to sit down formally with the Cabnit Secreteries and Congressman, you can't be precieved as a thug union....

That's an EXCELLENT example of what I was talking about; acting like a thug union may be successful with a one-on-one fight with management with a particular carrier, but the repercussions on the National level when the PAC guys go to bat in Washington on pension and rest issues could be major.

Unfortunately, I don't have experience in this, but I BELIEVE a line can be drawn between hard-line "thug-like" tactics at individual carriers without ALPA National being held accountable on The Hill. Could be wrong, but I DO know that what we're doing RIGHT NOW is NOT WORKING.

It is a MO that ALPA has choosen and it is of course open to criticism...

Regularly.

Finally, on your comment about National signing TA's.... When Midway in RDU was on its last leg doing USAIR service, the latest TA was rejected by DW because it came into conflict with Mid Atlantic... In this case DW didn't lower the bar... he sacrificed a small pilot group for a larger one.

Anyone got the balls to do that....?

That's EXACTLY what has to happen. We need a MAJOR to go to take it to the mat in the same way. I wonder how many management groups would back down within 48 - 72 hours of a real strike over these issues...?

My strike fund is up to 4 month's worth of bills, NOT INCLUDING the money ALPA would give us. Granted I'm 34 and at Pinnacle and I don't mind starting all over again if it means MORE MONEY overall when I retire; a lot of other people already at a major evidently aren't able to stomach that kind of commitment (UAL, USAir, DAL,,,)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's EXACTLY what has to happen. We need a MAJOR to go to take it to the mat in the same way. I wonder how many management groups would back down within 48 - 72 hours of a real strike over these issues...?

; a lot of other people already at a major evidently aren't able to stomach that kind of commitment (UAL, USAir, DAL,,,)

My point to your first paragraph is made by your second..... who is going to be the sacrficial lamb?

 

[Lear70]

My point to your first paragraph is made by your second..... who is going to be the sacrficial lamb?

Evidently no one. United didn't, USAirways didn't, Delta made a lot of noise and didn't, now NWA looks like they won't either.

Regional creep is going to kill ALL their jobs. I'm going to end up flying left seat in a 70-seat CRJ to a NWA DC-9 or Airbus Captain bumped to my right seat before long at the rate we're going.

Disgusting.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Are you saying that their notable abscence during such trying times at NWA is excusable? Defensible? Reasonable?

Or is this just another example of a lesson lost on unionism where ALPA has failed once again to support their brother unions? Failed once again to grow a pair of balls?

If you really want an answer to where ALPA was during all this....look no farther than the LEC reps the NWA pilots elected to represent them. In this case, it ain't the ALPA World Hq at fault.....it's the locals....

The rank and file elected them....they can recall them whenever they want...

Tejas

 

[JoeMerchant]

YAWN....

What else you got? Anything positive?

Ahhh.. yes, when you pin an ALPA cheerleader down, you get a canned response of "YAWN". Rez, you are exactly the problem ALPA has. ALPA is run by politicians, and politicians are rarely leaders. Leaders rarely become politicians because the masses are asses... and the cycle continues.

Don't preach to me about getting involved ..... been there, done that, and still waiting for the t-shirt. Having seen it from the "inside", ALPA is corrupt and hypocritical. It complains about "executive compensation", while it pays it's own "executives" an outragious salary. It preaches "trade unionism", while it forgives thousands of scabs and allows individual pilot groups to stab each other in the back. It flip flops on the age 60 rule depending on which way the wind (read dues money) blows.

Koolaid comes in two flavors..... Herndons can be quite strong......

 

[737 Pylt]

Koolaid comes in two flavors..... Herndons can be quite strong......

While I am in no way a fan of ALPA, just wondering what flavor the kool aid is over at the rjdc??
737

 

[JoeMerchant]

While I am in no way a fan of ALPA, just wondering what flavor the kool aid is over at the rjdc??
737

Here's the difference. RJDC is a lawsuit against ALPA for lack of DFR on ALPA's part. Nothing more, nothing less. It only represents the plaintiffs. It doesn't represent you, it doesn't represent Rez. ALPA on the other hand claims to be all things to all people while it really isn't serving anyone. You mainline guys have lost more than us, I'll be the first to admit it. Even more reason not to trust ALPA since you mainline guys essentially run the organization and it can't even protect you.

So to answer your question, RJDC serves shots of reality.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ahhh.. yes, when you pin an ALPA cheerleader down, you get a canned response of "YAWN". Rez, you are exactly the problem ALPA has. ALPA is run by politicians, and politicians are rarely leaders. Leaders rarely become politicians because the masses are asses... and the cycle continues.

Don't preach to me about getting involved ..... been there, done that, and still waiting for the t-shirt. Having seen it from the "inside", ALPA is corrupt and hypocritical. It complains about "executive compensation", while it pays it's own "executives" an outragious salary. It preaches "trade unionism", while it forgives thousands of scabs and allows individual pilot groups to stab each other in the back. It flip flops on the age 60 rule depending on which way the wind (read dues money) blows.

Koolaid comes in two flavors..... Herndons can be quite strong......

ALPA is run by politicians, and politicians are rarely leaders.

I expect Pilots to fly airplanes
I expect politicians to run political organizations. Who do you expect to run ALPA, a political organization? The Dali Lama? But it is easier to just hate...

Its own execs?... You mean Exec. One guy. We've gone over this... find the flight info links.... more superficial street talk... ALPA Nat'l Officers have taken pay cuts, Nat'l salary is determined by the BOD. Once you get informed on the entire process and issues, its not not as blatent and such an easy target as you want it to be. But it is easier to just to hate....

How does ALPA allow individuals to stab other pilots in the back? Shouldn't you blame the individuals? I don't get it. But it is easier to hate

Age 60. Huh? What are you talking about? ALPA put out a detailed information campaign on Age 60 and then ran a membership survey to accept the will of the membership... only 38% of the pilots even bothered to particpate. How can you say flip flop. You ALPA cynics are a real gem. So filled with bitter and lost expectations you just want to hate.

Nope not saying to get involved, all I am saying is get informed... if you are going to hate then be smart (informed) about it...

Yeah, you got that T-Shirt, but you're wearing it inside out and backwards, with the tag in the front. (IOW you don't know how it works..) And you think ALPA, a political organization, shouldn't be run by politicians. Of course you're confused and disapointed. I'm glad you got involved, but with misaligned expectations, I can see you may have had difficulty.

Trying to label me a ALPA cheerleader...helps your hate machine...makes it easier for you. ALPA has lots of problems, we have to fix them. However, no organization is all things to all.

I'm not defending ALPA, I'm just not supporting and validating your hate

Hater....