Where was ALPA?

[Lear70]

It actually seems to be a double-edged sword in a scenario like this.

ALPA is supposed to be a professional group representing professional pilots who are, at all times, calm, controlled, and professional, even when faced with the worst of adversity.

So are they supposed to abandon that and play on the same level that NWA management is playing? That would require a large display of the anger that's bubbling below the surface of the average line pilot, pointed at NWA management, at functions you were suggesting they attend and do just that.

How would the public respond. Do you honestly think the media would spin it any way except the pilots getting unruly and "out of control"? Money rules the media 99% of the time, and NWA does their fair share of keeping the media happy. My bet would be on a NEGATIVE spin on ALPA for getting outright hostile.

On the other hand, by playing it cool, ALPA runs the risk of allowing management to underestimate their resolve and refuse to even come CLOSE to bargain in good faith which, by everything I have read of the daily reports from ALPA, management has YET to do.

Personally, my bet is that the judge will allow the contract to be thrown out but that Northwest won't do anything drastic. They recognize that danger, and will pick the contract apart slowly, piece by small piece, until it's unrecognizable to current book. Makes it MUCH harder for ALPA to justify a strike over just a few hours of pay rigs or a day of vacation.

I'll ask the same question everyone else is: "What, SPECIFICALLY, do you advocate that ALPA should do differently?" I don't necessarily disagree with you, I would like to see more aggressive moves on ALPA's part at EVERY organized carrier these days, but I can't honestly see them getting MUCH more aggressive without negative repercussions.

One small step for management, one giant leap in the destruction of another union.

 

[Boeingman]

Good post Lear. One thing is clear and cannot be argued as is evident with the labor strife today, the path that ALPA has chosen is not working. In fact is failing miserably.

As far as our resident ALPA puffer Rez, nothing but clear and absolute loyalty will suffice.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Good post Lear. One thing is clear and cannot be argued as is evident with the labor strife today, the path that ALPA has chosen is not working. In fact is failing miserably.

As far as our resident ALPA puffer Rez, nothing but clear and absolute loyalty will suffice.

And I thought my coffee was bitter this morning....

ALPA is the pilots.

The direction "ALPA" takes is the direction the pilots at that airline choose to take.

ALPA bashing is like my dog barking at the television...he doesn't understand it, but he's loud nonetheless.

 

[ESS PWR]

It actually seems to be a double-edged sword in a scenario like this.

ALPA is supposed to be a professional group representing professional pilots who are, at all times, calm, controlled, and professional, even when faced with the worst of adversity.

.

Very cool headed, and I commend you for that.

However, leaving NW pilots or any organized labor without a collective bargaining agreement is enough reason to organize spotted strikes over the system. If US labor begins to work under imposed rules and worst yet, the court system forcing labor to work under imposed working conditions, then we are facing a new type of slavery in the US.

I feel strongly that NW pilots will strike a deal in the last minute, but it is not to say the agreemnet will be something ratifyable by NW pilots. NW ALPA has a responsibility to come to terms with management and it should be up to the member pilots to accept the new terms or loudly reject it.

Let's hope this issue is resolved in a manner that satisfies all parties involved.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good post Lear. One thing is clear and cannot be argued as is evident with the labor strife today, the path that ALPA has chosen is not working. In fact is failing miserably.

As far as our resident ALPA puffer Rez, nothing but clear and absolute loyalty will suffice.

The next time you post your "I don't understand how ALPA works within the confines of the RLA and the fact that ALPA doesn't control the company combined with ALPA hasn't lived up to my expectations, even though those expectations are unrealistic" drivel....

I'll just see what Lear thinks....he does a good job saying what you can't....

Again, I've got lots of ALPA criticism. ALPA isn't a wonder drug or silver bullit. One of ALPA's faults is guys like you... too angry and bitter to be effective. You're like a Brit in 1940's London complaining about being stuck in the tube with watered down tea, complaining that Churchill doesn't give a damn about you, all while Nazi bombs are raining on your head...

Hey man, the airline industry is in shambles right now. All of us are taking hits, but all you got is criticism... And noisemakers like you don't get invited to the table where change is made... they stay out in the parking lot.

So unless you change your Modus Operandi all you got is anger and bitter. If ALPA is useless, then replace it and I'll support the new regime. The thing is, we got to have representation. Without it, we are finished. If anyone things the concessionary agreements of the past four years would have been better without representation then you are dumber than dumb. But you are an airline pilot...you can't be that dumb.

Everybody brings something to the table, all you got is negativity and no solutions.. change your MO and invoke positive change....

 

[Boeingman]

The next time you post your "I don't understand how ALPA works within the confines of the RLA and the fact that ALPA doesn't control the company combined with ALPA hasn't lived up to my expectations, even though those expectations are unrealistic" drivel....

I'll just see what Lear thinks....he does a good job saying what you can't....

Again, I've got lots of ALPA criticism. ALPA isn't a wonder drug or silver bullit. One of ALPA's faults is guys like you... too angry and bitter to be effective. You're like a Brit in 1940's London complaining about being stuck in the tube with watered down tea, complaining that Churchill doesn't give a dang about you, all while Nazi bombs are raining on your head...

Hey man, the airline industry is in shambles right now. All of us are taking hits, but all you got is criticism... And noisemakers like you don't get invited to the table where change is made... they stay out in the parking lot.

So unless you change your Modus Operandi all you got is anger and bitter. If ALPA is useless, then replace it and I'll support the new regime. The thing is, we got to have representation. Without it, we are finished. If anyone things the concessionary agreements of the past four years would have been better without representation then you are dumber than dumb. But you are an airline pilot...you can't be that dumb.

Everybody brings something to the table, all you got is negativity and no solutions.. change your MO and invoke positive change....

I was going to respond to your tired diatribe, but seriously why bother? Guys like you are the real threat to the union. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil about the ALPA. Just sit back, blame the membership for all it ills.

You and Occum can rest easy.. I am not bitter or angry. I am disgusted. The nice thing about my personal financial situation is I don't care what happens to my airline job....or yours for that matter.

BTW sport, I spent 25 months on a picket line trying to effect change within
the industry and union. Don't you ever tell me that I haven't done nothing to get involved or you unrealistic drivel mantra. Take your pompus kiss ass groveling attitude and go blow yourself. Deal?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

And I thought my coffee was bitter this morning....

ALPA is the pilots.

The direction "ALPA" takes is the direction the pilots at that airline choose to take.

ALPA bashing is like my dog barking at the television...he doesn't understand it, but he's loud nonetheless.

That same logic can be applied to the citizens of this country when it comes to government. While the citizens in theory can influence even determine, the powers that be (purposely) stack the deck against them. Probably explains the bashing since history is a good indicator that the pilots will lose.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I was going to respond to your tired diatribe, but seriously why bother? Guys like you are the real threat to the union. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil about the ALPA. Just sit back, blame the membership for all it ills.

You and Occum can rest easy.. I am not bitter or angry. I am disgusted. The nice thing about my personal financial situation is I don't care what happens to my airline job....or yours for that matter.

BTW sport, I spent 25 months on a picket line trying to effect change within
the industry and union. Don't you ever tell me that I haven't done nothing to get involved or you unrealistic drivel mantra. Take your pompus kiss ass groveling attitude and go blow yourself. Deal?

YAWN....

So now you are no longer discussing the issue, rather switching to personal attacks....

Too diffilcult to hear you from the parking lot.....

What else you got? Anything positive?

 

[Lear70]

The direction "ALPA" takes is the direction the pilots at that airline choose to take.

Actually, that's not ENTIRELY correct. In many cases, ALPA NATIONAL directs the policies and negotiating committees at individual airlines. Yes, an individual MEC is allowed to do certain things on its own but, in the end, ALPA National has veto authority over ANY T.A. and the MEC's actions MUST fall in line with NATIONAL's policies.

This is where the problem lies... at the TOP. This is ALSO why you don't see many pilots staying a long time in any committee unless it's the Grievance (Contract Compliance) Committee or the Negotiating Committee. A lot of pilots get involved, just to get disgusted that, by themselves, they are unable to affect any REAL change in the system.

As I said before, I'd REALLY LOVE to see a more aggressive stance by ALPA National that would then direct the individual MEC's to get more aggressive. The main reason we have management pushing pilots so hard is that management knows they'll probably get away with it. It's just continued from airline to airline to airline that, rather than draw a line in the sand, each airline has conceded ground until a T.A. is reached. With THIS strategy of "retreat and wait for better days", we're looking at RJ's at feeders and Wide Bodies at majors and NOTHING IN BETWEEN!

ALPA bashing is like my dog barking at the television...he doesn't understand it, but he's loud nonetheless.

That's actually pretty funny and, for the most part, quite accurate. I can't remember how many times I've heard pilots bashing ALPA who haven't even read the bylaws, much less tried to get involved and change anything. I was actually just in the crew room a few days ago and one of our senior pilots was SCREAMING right up in a reps face that he had been "misrepresented by ALPA years ago", but probably didn't have a clue about how the system really worked.

We are, unfortunately, stuck with what we have at the moment as there's no viable alternative to ALPA and, for the most part, no carrier is willing to "take one for the team", but rather let them chisel away at us every 4 or 5 years.

It doesn't help that airline management can't run a profitable airline either (hard to ask for raises when your company is losing millions every quarter), but if YOU made six figures a year running an airline into bankruptcy every 4-6 years, why would you stop until you were MADE to by federal law?

There's LOTS of problems with our profession, not "just" ALPA.

 

[Boeingman]

Duane? Is that you?

YAWN....

So now you are no longer discussing the issue, rather switching to personal attacks....

Too diffilcult to hear you from the parking lot.....

What else you got? Anything positive?

You done blowing yourself already? I already gave you answers on this site before and you ignored them. You are just to much of an ALPA apologist to admit or see another point of view of the dismal failures and what really needs to be done to right side this comedy called the ALPA.