When to make a full instrument approach?

[Lead Sled]

You are right Sled. Hey about weather reports, correct me if I'm wrong but the only weather report needed Part 91 is the airport's altimeter setting or the altimeter setting for an airport authorized for the IAP.

That's correct, you don't need any weather per se, just an altitmeter setting.

'Sled

 

[minitour]

That's correct, you don't need any weather per se, just an altitmeter setting.

'Sled

Thanks for clearing it up man...I always wondered where they got the RVR thing...

So...I guess technically if the required vis was 1/2 and the runway was 5,000' and you landed....all you'd have to say is "saw the end of the runway", right?

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

One More Time - SLOWLY

So...I guess technically if the required vis was 1/2 and the runway was 5,000' and you landed....all you'd have to say is "saw the end of the runway", right?

Mini...
You keep on trying to make this overly complicated. (I can't believe I said that after reading my entire answer. ) I guess that you what you said was correct; however I want you to understand that the only end of the runway that you have to see is the approach end, not the departure end.

When operations are being conducted under Part 91, all you need is an appropriate altimeter setting in order the initiate the approach and descend to either the DH or MDA.

In order to continue the descent below the MDA or DH you must be (Reference 91.175):
1. Continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers. This is to prevent pilots from lingering at the DH or MDA, hoping to catch a glimpse of the runway in time to chop the power and drop like a brick. It also prohibits the pilot from continuing an approach below the MDA or DH if he loses sight of the runway environment at any time after descending below the MDA or DH

2. The flight visibility must not be less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used. This is the part that allows Part 91 operators to take a look see. However, the FAA will more than likely take a dim view if a pilot claims that his inflight visability was significantly better that what the tower was reporting. This isn't a license to cheat the system, just an acknowledgement that conditions can and do vary somewhat from location to location.

3. Assuming you arrive at the MDA or DH at a position and attitude where you won't have to put on an airshow if you continue the descent to the runway, you must have at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:

(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.

(ii) The threshold.

(iii) The threshold markings.

(iv) The threshold lights.

(v) The runway end identifier lights.

(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.

(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.

(viii) The touchdown zone lights.

(ix) The runway or runway markings.

(x) The runway lights.

Simply put, when you arrive at the MDA or DH, you look up and if you can see any one or more of the above listed items and you are legally allowed to continue the approach to the runway. When it comes to low vis approaches, they are definately easier at night. The various approach and runway lights are easier to pick out. Once you've got those in sight you're good.

Again, when it comes to landing, the restriction is flight visibility and that is determined by the pilot, not the tower. However, the same cautions previously mentioned as to the use of flight visability apply here as well.

'Sled

 

[BHMFr8Dog]

When to make a full instrument approach?


Remembering back to the CFI days...
When NOT to execute a PT...

S - Straight In (to approach course)
H - Holding pattern in lieu of PT
A - DME ARC to FAF
R - Radar vectors to FAF
P - Published NoPT route

Don't have an AIM with me to reference the para numbers, sorry.

 

[bafanguy]

Mini,


A good source of info on this particular FAR/subject is in "Amendment 91-173" that was issued when this FAR appeared with Change #42, circa 1980. It's part of the ton of paper stuff that comes with changes to the paper edition of Part 91....pages of small print...looks like you wouldn't want to read it, but it's important. I don't know if you can get it online, but if you can, it'll answer a lot of questions about the FAA's intent and thought behind this FAR.

They also put out one when Part 121 was amended covering this same subject.

Hope this helps.

 

[minitour]

Mini...
You keep on trying to make this overly complicated.

'Sled

I tend to do that

Thanks again for clearing up the confusion on the RVR thing...

-mini

 

[OleGuy]

I understand what the reg says but, just remember that if you land on the runway below reported minimums , the tower is required to report it. In 38 years of flying I made it a point to avoid getting to know the FAA.

 

[Lead Sled]

In 38 years of flying I made it a point to avoid getting to know the FAA.

Wise advice. So far, in 39 years of flying, I've been able to limit my contact with the FAA to purely routine matters - except for the occassional social outing. In fact, my wife and I are going out to eat this evening with a Fed.

'Sled

 

[Sctt@NJA]

The question of when you will do a full approach is a good one.

The only times I have done them in real life has been in no radar areas. Question is how do you know if there is approach radar at an unfamiliar airport?

A couple airports where I KNOW people get surprised when they think they are getting vectors for the approach and then are suddenly (and close in) given a clearance for the full approach: Lebanon NH and Keene NH.

Looking at the approach plates for those airports are there any hints that radar is not available? Not that I know of. There is the little symbol that shows there is radar. There is radar in those areas but the coverage doesn't go low enough to allow for vectors to final.

This can lead to some real scrambling for unfamiliar pilots!

 

[minitour]

Question is how do you know if there is approach radar at an unfamiliar airport?

That's a great point. There's an airport we fly in to a lot just for the purpose of doing full approaches non-radar and there's nothing special on the plates for there.

Maybe that's something NACO and Jepp could work on in the future...great idea.

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

I understand what the reg says but, just remember that if you land on the runway below reported minimums , the tower is required to report it. In 38 years of flying I made it a point to avoid getting to know the FAA.

Ole Guy,

Don't want to seem a smart-azz, but in 25 yrs in various towers, I've never heard of such a requirement. Not that certain folks in certain towers wouldn't do it. I suppose we could report the ugliest paint job ever seen on a Lear 35 if so inclined, but I'm not aware of any requirement to report a crew for landing when WX was reported at or below mins. Well, OK, about the third time some nut landed a C210 with 800 RVR, I might stop believing in lucky breaks in the viz...

There may be any number of people on the ramp or monitoring the frequency who would take a dim, official, view of such, and I have heard of those situations, so the best advice would be to CYA and follow the regs of course.

 

[Vector4fun]

The only times I have done them in real life has been in no radar areas. Question is how do you know if there is approach radar at an unfamiliar airport?


This can lead to some real scrambling for unfamiliar pilots!

Just some Gee-Whiz info,

Even at airports with radar, if it were to go down for any reason, and depending on the coverage available from CENRAP, they may or may not be able to vector to the final approach course. Also, where radar IS available, we're not supposed to vector to an approach course that's not displayed on the video map. (Though we could "wing it" in an emergency or some such). Most of our GPS approach courses are NOT displayed, for example, but where they overlay a VOR or localizer course, we do vector. Where they don't, we don't. Most NDB finals are not on the vido maps as well.

We normally won't allow the techs to do scheduled maint on the radar unless WX is good enough for easy visuals. But practice app vectors could be iffy.

 

[minitour]

Just some Gee-Whiz info,

I love that stuff! Keep it comin!

-mini

 

[Username_here]

Holding Pattern at FAF for PT??

I heard of SHARP before, but where in the regs does one find that? Looking in the AIM 5-4-9 it says that "some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted." Unless, obviously, radar vectored.

So flying a ILS outbound, there is a racetrack depicted at the FAF, one would have to fly that, (after entering either with teardrop or parallel{which in all actuality all entries are direct, it just depends on you get there}) right?

 

[minitour]

So flying a ILS outbound, there is a racetrack depicted at the FAF, one would have to fly that, (after entering either with teardrop or parallel{which in all actuality all entries are direct, it just depends on you get there}) right?

You don't need to fly the entire race track and shouldn't unless you get authorization from ATC.

The easiest way to think about it (for me) is "cross the fix twice". For example, if I'm outbound on the inbound course, I'll cross it, do my tear drop "entry" and cross it again, but instead of turning outbound to continue with the "pattern", I'd continue inbound. Same thing for the other entries. For a direct entry, I'd actually do one circuit in the "pattern"...

The idea is to be able to reverse your course, not spend five hours doing race-track patterns.

If you need to go around the "track" once or twice, just tell ATC and (in my limited experience) they usually are cool with it. Something like, "XYZ approach, cessna 123 request a turn in the hold at DEFIX for the descent"..."Cessna 123 one turn approved, report leaving DEFIX".

-mini