When to make a full instrument approach?

[bobs98tlr]

PT and all...(If it requires one)??

When not in radar coverage and or instructed to do so by ATC???

I have my instrument but this is one of those deals where if you dont use it you forget it, plus i wasnt tought to much about this anyways and was just currious.

Also what acronim do you use for your pre-landing check list?
I use GUMPS/WRIMTIM

W- Wx
R- Radio set (tower, ground, approach, ect..)
I- Identify the station/localizer
M- Minimums (hight)
T- Time (time from outer marker to DH)
I- Inbound course set in Nav

BTW: Any other quick tips for Instrument flying would be nice.
M- Missed approach procedures

 

[minitour]

Full Procedures....no radar contact, no communications, when you request and get approved or when instructed to.

Before Landing....GUMPPSS
Gas
Undercarriage (gear)
Mixture
Prop
Power
Seatbelts
Switches (Lights)

The weather and shtuff is all part of my approach brief. If I'm doing my before landing check that early, that sucks....or if I'm getting the weather just as I get ready to pass the FAF, I'm screwed.

For briefing the Approach:
MARTHA
Missed Approach (The navaids/radials that need set for the miss as well as the initial heading/altitude...if it's a climbing right turn to 3,000 then climb to 4,000 then direct to XYZ, I want to know "climbing right turn 3,000" off the top of my head)
Radios (Obvious)
Time (Obvious)
Headings (This should be changed to "courses" I think...you could be way off on "headings" just due to wind, but this is my approach "precession" check)
Altitudes (Obvious)

I also go across the briefing strip at the top as part of my "initial" briefing.
Once I hear "expect vectors ILS 32" or "expect VOR 18" or whatever, I pull the plate, put it in the clip and look at the stuff across the top. First thing I do is set my primary nav in Nav 1's "backup". Second think I do is check the ATIS/ASOS/AWOS. If I don't have the visibility to land, there's no point in shooting the approach...I might as well tell approach that I need to hold to wait for the vis to come up. After that, if the vis is good, then I'll go through this:

Finish the rest of the "strip" up top. Set Nav 2, Com 2 (Tower in the "current" and Ground in the "ready" side), ADF if needed. If I'm already on vectors, I'll switch the Navaids over and ID them and set the radial/course in the OBS/HSI. Another thing I want to see here is the MDA/DH/DA/HAA/HAT. If DH is 250' HAT and the cielings is vv100 and 1sm, I know it's going to be dicey getting to the runway. At that point, I can give Flightwatch a call and see if they've had any PIREPs or any indications that the number might be closer to 250'. From there, I just move into the MARTHA thing....

If the visibility is right on legal/not so legal to land, then I'll put it in Com 1 so I can listen all the way down the slide (once I get kicked over to tower). If it's reporting 1/8th, I might as well start the miss now...ask for a hold or whatever...depending on fuel.

The best "quick tips" I can give you for IFR stuff is:
1. FLY THE AIRPLANE! At all times fly the airplane. On vectors for an approach and don't have it set up yet, no problem. Did they just turn you final? Tell them, "sorry, but I need another minute or two, I'll take vectors for the re-sequence" or "I can take the turn and the clearance but I need a turn in the hold before I can proceed in bound"...whatever it takes to ALWAYS fly the airplane. Work with ATC to make sure you're ready to go when they are.

2. GET AHEAD OF THE AIRPLANE. If you get ahead of the airplane (not of yourself) and know that "if I do this, then this will happen so I can do this and that will happen so I can do that then..." then the scenario in number 1 won't happen and you'll always be FLYING THE AIRPLANE.

3. If you're on a descent or vectored descent on vectors for an approach, trim the airplane for 500'/min descent, pull out the plate and set up the approach then. No sense in waiting. Get it set up when your workload is lessened. You don't have to hold altitude now, right? You just need to know when to start a level off, so put the bug at the altitude you're going to. You've only gotta keep heading and keep the greasy side down...less workload, more time to screw with radios. (Gets back to No 2 which gets back to No 1)

...basically everything that I do and that I teach is geared towards flying the airplane and not letting it get ahead of you. Seems to work so far.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

When to do a full instrument approach procedure...PT and all...(If it requires one)??

Although, in the training environment, you do a lot of full procedures; in the real world, they're seldom done. (I don't think that I've had to do more than a handful in the past several years. And yes, I've shot my share of approaches.) It's usually more expedient for ATC to simply give you vectors to the final approach fix. It will normally be extremely obvious with ATC expects you to perform the entire procedure - for example when they clear you to the IAF prior to clearing you for the approach.

I highly recommend that all of you low-time IFR pilots get yourself a copy of Instrument Flying by Taylor. It's one of the best books out there on how to fly IFR in the real world (not the "training world") and how to work the system. While you're at it, get a copy of Weather Flying by Buck. Read them once quickly, then a second time with a highlighter. You'll learn a lot about how it's really done.

'Sled

 

[milflyboy]

If the visibility is right on legal/not so legal to land, then I'll put it in Com 1 so I can listen all the way down the slide (once I get kicked over to tower). If it's reporting 1/8th, I might as well start the miss now...ask for a hold or whatever...depending on fuel.

If you are past FAF it doesn't matter if RVR goes below. All that matters is if you can see the RWY (Flight vis ok).

 

[Lead Sled]

If the visibility is right on legal/not so legal to land, then I'll put it in Com 1 so I can listen all the way down the slide (once I get kicked over to tower). If it's reporting 1/8th, I might as well start the miss now...ask for a hold or whatever...depending on fuel.

Why would you want to do that? When it comes to 121/135 what Milflyboy said is correct. Under part 91 you're totally legal to take a "look see". All that matters is what you can see when you get to the bottom of the approach. Granted, if the vis has gone south on you, you'll most likely end up having to miss. But you never know.

'Sled

 

[minitour]

If you are past FAF it doesn't matter if RVR goes below. All that matters is if you can see the RWY (Flight vis ok).

You sure about that? I'm talking pt 91 stuff not 121/135.

Why would you want to do that? When it comes to 121/135 what Milflyboy said is correct. Under part 91 you're totally legal to take a "look see". All that matters is what you can see when you get to the bottom of the approach. Granted, if the vis has gone south on you, you'll most likely end up having to miss. But you never know.

Which is fine, if there's just "visibility" being reported, I can always say "well the required vis for the approach is 1/2 and I could see the end of the runway so clearaly I had (a mile, two miles, whatever)". But if RVR is being reported, why do I want to take a chance at getting busted. Sure, maybe I can see to the end of the runway, but RVR is the be-all-end-all. Not something I'm willing to put my certificates on the line for.

Honestly, if the forecasts are that questionable, I'm not going. I don't have anywhere that I have to be (not flying any paying pax yet) that isn't within driving distance if the weather is forecast that low.

If it's something that just happens (forecasts are wrong a lot) and RVR is being reported, I can try to "work with Tower" *wink wink*, but most likely, I'd rather just hold and wait for it to go back up. I always make sure there's holding fuel and alternate fuel and reserves to back that up.

I do it more as a "double safety thing". Why go down, not see anything, then shoot the miss. I'd rather have fun doing circles in a hold than start sweating on a minimums miss and end up hitting a mountain or such. Now I know that if I just fly the procedure correctly, I won't have that problem, but how many other people have said, "oh it's no problem, I'll just go missed...no big deal *smack*". I'd rather not be one of those.

But that's just my opinion on safety of flight. Others like the "take a look" method...personally, I'd rather get the time in a hold, collect my thoughts and then if I want to take a peak if it's still questionable...then I'll go for it.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

Which is fine, if there's just "visibility" being reported, I can always say "well the required vis for the approach is 1/2 and I could see the end of the runway so clearaly I had (a mile, two miles, whatever)". But if RVR is being reported, why do I want to take a chance at getting busted. Sure, maybe I can see to the end of the runway, but RVR is the be-all-end-all. Not something I'm willing to put my certificates on the line for.

Remember, you said that we're talking Part 91. It is legal under Part 91 to take a "look see" and you're not going to put your certificates in jeopardy for doing so.

(The same principle applies for takeoffs under Part 91, but most guys wisely won't attempt 0/0 takeoffs. Personally, I want to see a quarter mile off of most instrument runways - you got to be able to see a few centerline stripes or the lights.)

Granted, if all three RVRs (where available) are reporting visibilities below minimums, then I wouldn't get my hopes up but there's nothing wrong with taking a look - if your skills are up to it. I can't tell you how many times I've done that and ended up being able to land.

I'm talking from the perspective of over 30 years of earning a living sitting in the left seat. Those who know me, know that I don't play games when it comes to stupid stunts like busting minimums. That being said, in day-in-day-out operations, an honest to goodness missed approach is a realitively rare event at most airports. Sure it happens, but frequently, when things are reported hovering around minimums (or less) guys are still able to get in; and to do so legally. Under those conditions, a telephone call to the tower will let you know what's going on and if guys are getting in.

'Sled

 

[nosehair]

PT and all...(If it requires one)??

When not in radar coverage and or instructed to do so by ATC???

To answer your question about "PT and all", ya hafta do a full PT except when being radar vectored to final, or you are cleared on a published transition which says "NoPT".
Also, if you are holding on the Final Approach Course, when you are cleared for the approach, the last turn in your hold becomes your PT. If you are ready to begin your final descent at that time, you can continue straight-in, however, you may make another turn for your PT if you need time to configure or descend.

 

[bobs98tlr]

Thanks everyone for clearing that up for me. Some good advice as well.

 

[minitour]

Remember, you said that we're talking Part 91. It is legal under Part 91 to take a "look see" and you're not going to put your certificates in jeopardy for doing so.

Right, but I mean if RVR is reporting below mins, then just because I break out and see the other end of the runway (maybe a mile long or more) I still can't land. In this case, RVR could get me busted for landing below mins, even though I could clearly see across the field. I'm not talking about getting busted for shooting the approach. I'm talking about busting for landing. Hell, part 91, I can go missed and back down the glide slope all day long if it's 0/0...just can't land.

Granted, if all three RVRs (where available) are reporting visibilities below minimums, then I wouldn't get my hopes up but there's nothing wrong with taking a look - if your skills are up to it. I can't tell you how many times I've done that and ended up being able to land.

You can't legally land if RVR is reporting below mins...at least that's how it was always laid out to me. Flight visibility over-rules tower visibility, but RVR over-rules "flight" visibility. Maybe I misunderstood you here.

I'm talking from the perspective of over 30 years of earning a living sitting in the left seat. Those who know me, know that I don't play games when it comes to stupid stunts like busting minimums.

I understand and I see where you're coming from with the "take a look" idea. If it's a reported visibility from tower, then yeah...I'll probably go down and take a look (depending on the approach, runway, lighting, day or night, how long I've been at it, and other variables). If it's an RVR issue, then I'm gonna hang out in a hold unless I can't (picking up ice, running on fumes, whatever) until either the RVR goes up or I have to leave the hold and head to my alternate.

But like I said, if it's forecasted to be that low...I'll hop in the Dodge and wish I was in the Cessna...

JMHO

-mini