Whats the word on TAB EXPRESS

[acaTerry]

Look man,
I've been flying 20 years, 12 as an instructor and also 4 as an airline pilot. This does not make me an expert, but it does give some credibility to my opinion, which is free....if someone wants a huge chunk of money UP FRONT, stay clear. I've seen too many poor guys get 3rd degree burned by that. Good luck, weigh your options early, and only listen to calm, factual replies.

 

[Tallorder]

Thanks for your help

Thank You guys for your honest opionions. I am reading everyone and listening very carefully

Tallorder

 

[Gulfstream 200]

acaterry is right on.

You should NEVER have to pay all up front. No matter what excuse they give..

Would you give a contractor 300K on day one to build your house??

Once you part with the dough, you have lost 100% of any bargainnig power you had.

You are simply along for the "ride"

and, no doubt in aviation "ride up the a$$" is what you are in for.

 

[350DRIVER]

You know 350Driver,

If you are going to try and convince people to not PFT, do it with facts, not lies. There a tons of ex-PFTers at almost every single major AND national, yours included.

That includes gulfstream, Eagle Jet, and all the ex 90's PFT airlines.

The argument that it COULD lead to more airlines expecting pilots to PFT, is semi-valid. But telling people that they will not get jobs is a load a bull. Air Tran and Frontier have recently hired quite a few from gulfstream. They are actually keeping some of the 250 hour program grads on a permanent basis recently, with numerous upgrades.

I myself have decided to not go to Gulfstream... for now... but it is for reasons other than the opinions voiced on this board.

____________________________________________________

aview1,

I sure hate to burst your bubble but you must be living in a fantasy world different than the one that most of us live in present day. Are "some" of the graduates of these programs at the nationals/majors? very few, and they surely are in a minority and that is pretty much a fact. When you say "tons" I have to laugh as I am sure many others have done the same when they read your reply. Obviously you do not have the background/experience in this industry to make a comment like that so it was taken at "face value" and that aint much. Most of the guys that I know who are on the interview boards across the line will laugh at you then spit you right back out and tell you not to let the door hit you on the way out.. No senior captain sitting on the interview board who had to bust his a$$ the hard way to get to where he is present day is going to have any compassion/pity for some sorry a$$ who had to buy his way in the door and undercut the industry in the process. Try it and see what happens to you, put your theory to test. I personally know one of these guys who attempts to pressure the recruiters into "choosing" these pfter's for the interview just so he can get a few good laughs and let loose on em. The majority of new hires at the nationals/majors will all be coming from either the regionals, furloughed guys, 135 guys, military, etc.. There is obviously no shortage of "qualified" applicants who have "earned" there way to this level and no need to whore the industry and go after the "few" who have bought and rented out a right seat of an airplane. I would stop drinking the kool aid that the marketing departments are feeding to you, it really will turn sour at some point down the line.. Will you get to the regionals? Yes but you will then experience what life in he!! feels like.. Absolutely no one that I know has any respect for these guys who have done this and went this route since they were able to choose between right and wrong at one point.

On the note of hiring, the airlines hire you whether you PFT or CFI. You just have to have the airlines minimum hours to apply.

I have some ocean front property in Oklahoma I would also like to sell, I will give you one he!! of a price on this... It is a different ball game after the regionals my man, if only it were as easy as "meet the minimum hours" then you are in.. You also must be in some sort of a fantasy world.. Take a look at the last few SWA, ATA, AWA, JetBlue classes and look at the hours that these guys had when hired, it may make you edit that statement... Hiring preferences at the regionals are only that, get real..



As for the "hard screening" at GIA, get real. You are trying to tell me that if someone shows up with a blank check that this group will turn them away.? You cannot be serious, sadly I think you are.

The argument that it COULD lead to more airlines expecting pilots to PFT, is semi-valid. But telling people that they will not get jobs is a load a bull. Air Tran and Frontier have recently hired quite a few from gulfstream. They are actually keeping some of the 250 hour program grads on a permanent basis recently, with numerous upgrades.

Gulfstream has hired street captains in the past with prior 121/turbine time. The guys moving on are these guys hired as captains for the most part who were hired off of the street. When they fed you guys the kool aid and lines of propaganda they neglected to tell you that at 500TT you would be kicked to some regional that has a "money" agreement to take you. I think Pinnacle, AE, and possibly one other will give you the interview, that is about it.. If you truly think that at 500TT you are going to Frontier or Air Tran then you surely have got that completely wrong, no truth to that.. It is quite interesting that they will refuse to tell you or be "unable" to give you a break down on the guys who have "bought" the seat and who are currently at a major/national.. Seems like that information would be rather easy to find and would be a great marketing tool if these pfter's were really sought and looked upon with any respect. To date I have not met a single guy who went through this program and is now flying the line at a national/major other than the street captains that were hired to go directly to the left seat... Where are you getting the "tons" of people from? I shall patiently await your response with great anticipation.(no sarcasm intended)

I myself have decided to not go to Gulfstream... for now... but it is for reasons other than the opinions voiced on this board.

Such a great program, why not? ( a tad of sarcasm intended)


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[Tallorder]

So am I to assume that buying your ticket at somewhere like TAB or Gulfstream is not a good thing................ because it puts more pressure on fellow pilots to PFT as well, instead of working there way to the top. Sort of like paying for your police academy training and hoping to get a job with the local cops rather than going through the whole long interview process like most of the cadets

 

[aview1]

You know 350,

I know some poeple have a problem with PFT, and I can respect the arguments they bring. But you are just an ......well I don't think it's worth sinking to your level.. All you know how to do is try to step on people you disagree with. Notice how there is a thread on the regional forum on how this board has turned into nothing but a flame throwing mess, guess who one of the causes are, you.

As for gulfstream and other PFT type people, and I mean the ex 250 hour guys who upgraded at gulfstream and became captains, not being at most of the big 5, and America West, Air Tran, Frontier, your sadly mistaken. Flat out wrong. NOT TO SAY MAJORS NATIONALS ETC. love PFT'ers, it's just that it is not really a huge factor in pilot recruiting at that level. (wether someone was a CFI or not, doesn't send up a flag saying hire this guy) because to them, it's who the best candidate is. Not who they determine got their time the hardest most lengthy way possible. But they are there wether you, or anybody else likes it or not.

MOST pilots I have talked to are considerably more professional than you. Even the ones who disagree with PFT of any type, not just the FO programs. I have numerous friends (fixed wing guys) from the service, the one that defends our country, which you know nothing about, who are at majors, nationals, and regionals, some are on furlough. A FEW, not all, infact a small percentage of these guys strongly disagree with PFT, and I'm sure SOME pilots on interview boards disagree with it too, but they (most) are professional enough in an interview to determine who is the better pilot, and who is the better person, no matter how they got their time. Sometimes, not all the time, that person will be someone who PFT'd. You have proven that it will not always be the person who did it the hard way.

 

[Tallorder]

can someone tell me where other message boards are so I can take a look at those as well.

 

[350DRIVER]

aview1,

I think you may have misinterpreted my posts. If you think that going this route is in your best interest then by all means do so, I would hope you would follow your ambitions and desires over my posts on this board. I have absolutely nothing against these guys personally just "professionaly". If I tried to step on you then I will be the first to apologize, but I do not think that was the case. I can only post from my experience(s) and those of others that I know. There is a reason why no one on this board has much respect at all for these guys that take part in these types of programs, just do a board search.. This is a dead horse that has been run over many times. As for the Mesa thread, I have no ties to that company other than quite a few friends who are currently first officers and captains there so I can not take the credit for those "flames".

As for gulfstream and other PFT type people, and I mean the ex 250 hour guys who upgraded at gulfstream and became captains, not being at most of the big 5, and America West, Air Tran, Frontier, your sadly mistaken. Flat out wrong. NOT TO SAY MAJORS NATIONALS ETC. love PFT'ers, it's just that it is not really a huge factor in pilot recruiting at that level. (wether someone was a CFI or not, doesn't send up a flag saying hire this guy) because to them, it's who the best candidate is. Not who they determine got their time the hardest most lengthy way possible. But they are there wether you, or anybody else likes it or not.

Can you provide some hard numbers on the "ex-250 hour" guys who are now flying for a major/national? I am sure this information if it agrees to what you are saying would be information that Gulfstream would very proudly provide a potential student.? I will await your response... Talk is somewhat cheap when you are saying what I am writing is not factual so let me see some figures/numbers and I will be happy to edit what I have written thus far.. He!! I guess the guys I know that do the interviews are probably just lying to me so I await your response...


c h e e r s

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tallorder- I would use the "search feature" and you will find plenty of Gulfstream stuff that is pretty much along the lines of what I have written

 

[aview1]

Well 350, since you seem honest enough, I will be too.

i admit some of the gia graduate employment numbers given to me were infact from the gia marketing department, which means some of them could very well be in question. but i know for sure, not from gia, of at least 6 at United, all on furlough of coarse, 8 at Delta, 5 on furlough, high double digit numbers at Continental (Chief pilots son is a first officer at gulfstream) 3, who i know personally, at Northwest, 2 of which are on furlough.

3 in the last 4 months to Air Tran, and 2 to Frontier, one of which i also know personally. Obviously there are also a significant amounts at COEX, Colgan, and Pinnacle. These numbers are ONLY for Gulfstream, they do not include the other PFT programs.

****PLEASE let this be a note to all who read this, I am in no way advising anybody to go to gulfstream academy***
just answering a question.

350, I have to tell you, that I think, as do some of my friends, the same ones who disagree with PFT, (I am friends with people who disagree with PFT) that the Mesa PACE deal is also PFT. You give them a chunk almost equal to gulfstream, for an interview.

*** i want to reiterate this, i am NOT advertising for gulfstream, i just don't like seeing SOME, not all, pretty good pilots, and really nice people getting put down just because they PFT'd, but some of these guys ARE at majors. Gotta say, I don't know of numbers at America West, the used car sales men at gia would have to tell you that.

 

[350DRIVER]

aview1,

I appreciate the kind reply since I have been unable to obtain those numbers from the guys that I know. Given the current shape of the industry however I do not think that those numbers are overly impressive but it does show that the numbers are out there to prove what has been contested on this board. Given the present day shape of the industry I would just be extremely careful when considering this option but do as you wish... I am pretty sure the guys that went to Frontier and Air Tran were pretty senior captains at there respectable regionals before they were hired on.

I have had a few friends who went the Mesa (MAPD) route who are now at AWA/ATA- many in recent times. The main difference between this program and GIA is that you are not given any hours in any airplane for a set cost, you are only given the opportunity to interview at Mesa if you can make it through this 19 month program which is a pretty difficult one to say the least. They have been known to wash quite a few out who fell behind the curve... The ATP program will also get you the interview if you pass on first ride so that is something that you may want to look into, I believe it is a 3 day course for around a $1,000 or so..


good luck in whatever you so desire and choose,


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[de727ups]

"A FEW, not all, infact a small percentage of these guys strongly disagree with PFT"

I agree. I think if I started asking my fellow major airline pilot crewmembers their opinion on PFT, that 95 out of 100 would say..."huh"?

Then I would say "Well, what would you think if a 121 passenger airline started hiring low time guys who pay big bucks for the chance to be an F/O on a Beech 1900. The idea being that the pilot would be a revenue source for the company for a time and then be able to get preferential hiring at another regional...that's what PFT is"

95 out of 100 would think it's not a very good idea and makes a mockery of the piloting profession.

By the way, I've met one (1) pilot at my major airline who worked for Gulfstream.

 

[aview1]

No, those numbers are not impressive at all, but they are there.

I almost went to gulfstream. I spent a significant amount of energy researching the issue. Overall, the training the FO's recieve is infact excellent, BUT, the way they run the buisness, I really disagree with. They virtually promise jobs to all prospective applicants, jobs which they can't always deliver, jobs which sometimes aren't always deserved. That is wrong. I just have to admit though, that SOME are getting jobs, wether at Pinnacle or wherever. Used car salesmen is a term I like to use when describing these marketing departments, Tab Express included. Though the civ aviation industry at all flight schools have these used car salesmen, after all, a pilot shortage is just around the corner...

I think re signing with the mil could be in my cards, but who knows.

 

[350DRIVER]

aview1,

With 2300TT I am sure you have option(s) available to you should you decide to pursue the civ. route. Whatever you decide follow what will make you most happy, not what I bring to this board since it is only one man's perspective and experience..

Thank you for serving this country and allowing us to enjoy the freedom that some take forgranted.

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[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

So am I to assume that buying your ticket at somewhere like TAB or Gulfstream is not a good thing................

Yes, and . . . .

because it puts more pressure on fellow pilots to PFT as well, instead of working there way to the top.

No. It will, or should, not put more pressure on pilots to P-F-T. Most pilots will work their way up the ranks because that is the traditional, and still time-honored, method of building the career.

We can go back to the analogies of cutting-in-line and cutting-off someone on the road. No one likes people who do these things. We are a society of rules. It is one thing if someone beats you to the front of the line; it is another if you've been standing in line and someone pushes his way in ahead of you.

Once more, having been where you're heading, you should consider flying for the fun and joy of it. Finish your ratings and get your CFI to put flying on a paying basis.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. If you are hell-bent on creating a professional aviation career, heed the advice of not paying up-front for anything.

Finally,

Originally posted by The_Russian
First off, we are not talking about Gulfstream. But once again you make me do this.

I thought the devil made you do it.

Second, just because you pay up-front at GIA does not mean that they are conning you. In fact Bobby, in the first five minutes of indoc GIA tells you:
"To enter this program you must pass the Instrument Refreasher course. If you do not pass you will not be allowed to enter the First Officer Program......(other things not applicable stated here)....After completion of this program you are NOT guaranteed a job. If you wish you can sign up for an interview with Pinnicle Airlines once you have completed 100 hrs in the B1900 . . . . . If someone does not pass the initial evaluation it is between GIA and the student whether they get there money back. I have known many people that were NOT accepted because they were not up to the schools high standards. They got their money back minus the cost of the initial course.

Any of these representations in writing, Russian? Better read the fine print, if any. I would not rely on any verbal representations, from Gulfstream, from TAB, from Riddle CAPT, or any P-F-T operator.

 

[The_Russian]

Whatever....

Why would that have to be in writing?????

When you go to Gulfstream you are not buying a job. CAN'T YOU SEE THAT. Read my posts and stop trying to turn them around on me. I am there and I know how the program works.

YOU DO NOT HAVE NOT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE

YOU HAVE NO FACTS

People ask if they should attend a training program and you say, "no dont do that because people will shun you!!!". How childish is that?? Give it a rest man. If you dont have positive things to say to students then you shouldnt be a CFI. Yes I said it. Even the FAA will tell you that read FAA-H-8083-9 pg. 8-11 under demeanor. And you will say something back to this like "look at the way the Russian acts". But, if you look at my posts that are to students, they are calm, professional, and factual. Although most of my posts since I began here have been trying to stop people like you from infecting students with a fear of rejection from airlines if you go to one of these schools. Rejection that DOES NOT EXIST. I used to be somewhat against these programs but not like you are. Then I realized how benificial they are. You have an obsession with this. Your only goal on this forum is to tall people what you dont want them to do.

What if the person is someone like me. I have over 1000 dual given and I am at GIA. I did my time. I CFI'd and worked ramp for 3 years. I have flown cargo and pax. I have rebuilt aircraft. I have flown jets. I have washed planes and the list goes on. I have been in aviation since before I could walk. So am I to be shunned out of the industry because I want to be more marketable? No. Nobody cares. No interview board cares man. If you can get an HR or executive OR Chief Pilot from a Major to come down to Ft. Lauderdale and tell us that GIA or TAB or Ameri-flite or anyone like them is bad, then I will tell you you have factual information and you are right. Until then, don't give people misinformation.

And dont insult me with that Devil B*LLSH*T! How dare you. You know what the difference between me and you is Bobby? I give facts and objective veiws. You alter peoples posts to be what YOU think they mean or how you want to read it, and then you insult them. Not to mention try to discredit everyone but yourself. I was trying to help this guy out and tell him that both ways are OK.

 

[de727ups]

"Nobody on this forum needs your two cents"

I do....

Though I disagree with Bobby sometimes I have a lot of respect for what he has to say and the way he says it.

 

[The_Russian]

What makes you have respect for him??

When somebody demands respect in a field that they are not even a part of, then they certainly shouldnt receive it. You cannot use opinion and a lot of posts on an internet forum as your credentials. You have to use facts straight from the horses mouth. Everyone on this site tends to trust the word of a few people that are misinformed.

Remember, if you lock the door then no one else can come to the party. If you are the only one there, who is going to believe what you say. Soon you begin to believe yourself. Then everywhere you go you are telling lies.

 

[350DRIVER]

Shut up Bobby. For once just shut the f**k up man. Nobody on this forum needs your two cents. And yes, I am insulting you too, but you deserve it.

I do as well, hands down... Not to sound overly arrogant but this man probably has more experience and knowledge in one finger than what you have in your entire body. He is more or less respected to the utmost by most all who frequent this board and most look forward to his threads/posts. The older you get the more you shall realize that at one point in life you were nieve to the world around you, be patient young one. Bobby surely has my support and the support of the majority of this board, I highly suggest that you do not try and distort the facts just to try and sell "propaganda" that you have apparently bought into...


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[English]

I second that...Bobby is a man of wisdom with lots to share with all of us (just lay off the age discrimination stuff, PLEASE?) All in jest...

 

[The_Russian]

350 don't try to talk to me as if I am some sort of inexperianced child. I don't doubt the fact that you are an experienced person, so don't doubt me. I only do this to defend thousands of GIA grads who deserve better than to be insulted and looked down on by the flying community. You cannot single someone out for going a different way to the airlines. The finger you are pointing at GIA doesn't even exist! Such a small percentage of people hate these programs, which is generally generated by jealousy. None of you have any proof that GIA and other programs are bad for the airlines. You also have no proof that airlines purposely hire anyone but GIA grads. Your opinions on training routes are not good enough to be used as a resource. You must have facts. Bobby, 727, and 350, are you mad because I bring facts to the table? If Bobby knows what he's talking about all the time, then why is he wrong now? And if he's so well respected why didn't he back down when the facts from people who are going, worked, or graduated from GIA told him otherwise. In a "professional atmosphere" you must be able to accept when you are wrong and not always be so stubborn. I have seen many CFI's get burned from jobs because they "knew they where right all the time".
I also have told people to do both CFI and PFT. What if I turned around and said the CFI route is bad because you never get to fly the aircraft? Thats an opinion which would not be good to use in a discussion especially with a student, so I would never say that. I also wouldn't I say it because it is a good route to go. Just as any route is. It p*sses me off so much because most of you are professional airline pilots. You are supposed to encourage us to get where you are, not beat us up for making educated choices. I know I made a good choice. Either way I chose to stay flying.
The Chief Pilot of the flight department where my father worked told me:
"Beg, buy, borrow, steal multi-engine time."

This was just before I got my private. I took his advice and I'm receiving some good training to boot.