Whats the word on TAB EXPRESS

[na265]

Russian, Keep up that GREAT attitude! If you go off on something like this topic, I am sure you are a real fun guy to fly with and hang with on an overnight. Your career, if you ever get that far, at an airline will be very short. Keep giving GIA all of your money. It sounds like with all of your experience you should be able to find a job somewhere.

Bobby, good job, man. 350 driver, let him have it. You are where he will never be!

 

[blade230]

Russian,

I have PFT'd, I have also instructed, and flown in the Bush. Everybody, including Bobby, have a right to their opinions. If somebody wants to dislike PFT, it is their perogative. You have to give Bobby credit for most of the time, avoiding insulting PFT'ers on a personal level. He attempts to use facts that are known to him to argue. Just as you are attempting to use facts known to you. I disagree with some of Bobby's beliefs, but I can resepct the way he argues. Even though I disagree with some of his ideas, I am sure he has lots of experiece. I will respect him for that, and being profesional enough to avoid insults.

 

[The_Russian]

Actually I have a very positive attitude and everyone that hangs out with me thinks I am a great person. Just because I have to give these guys a wakeup call doent mean that I am a horrible person or a difficult person to work with. Before you judge my character you need to know me, not just read some post I made on a forum. I would have respected you more if you had been nicer to me for the first time you responded to one of my posts, seeing as how my anger is not directed to you. Although I cannot expect that seeing as how the few post I have made have been brutal.

I'm sure Bobby, 350, and 727 are all nice people in person. However, no one has the right to judge someone on what they don't know about that person or the way they get where they are trying to go.

And for your information I never be where they are right now. I will never look down on someone because they decided to better themself.

 

[The_Russian]

Posted by Bobbysamd:

"I thought the devil made you do it."

Sounds like an insult that was directed to me!
Or did the devil make me say that??

 

[blade230]

OK, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[The_Russian]

No worries....

 

[PCL_128]

Oh boy, where do I start...

The_Russian:

Most people around Flightinfo know that I PFT'd a few years ago at the 'Stream. I've also been involved in quite a few of these PFT debates over the past few years. Do a search and you'll find that this debate has been going on for years with no change in the debate on either side. It is pointless to try to change their minds. You are simply wasting your time.

That being said, if you insist on debating this issue on Flightinfo, let me give you some advice: getting angry and calling names is not going to do you or anyone else any good at all. Relax!!! Getting angry only hurts your argument. It looks bad on you, not them. Try to be civil with everyone, even if they aren't civil to you. This is a skill you need to learn not just on Flightinfo, but in aviation in general. There will be times that you will fly with captains that you disagree with or just plain don't like. You can't get angry with them. You have to show them respect and act like a professional. The same should apply here on Flightinfo. Even if you think others here don't act like professionals, don't stoop to their level.

Now for some facts about GIA:

- The_Russian has made the point that people do get turned away from GIA no matter how big their bank account is. This is absolutely the truth!!! The_Russian has talked about the entry sim eval that all applicants are required to pass. For about a year and a half I was the guy administering these sim evals. I can tell you that over that time span, I failed dozens of applicants that had the bank account, but not the skill necessary to enter the 121 environment. GIA doesn't just take everyone with $25k. There are more than enough people willing to PFT that make it possible for GIA to be somewhat selective about who it lets into the program. I know Bobby won't believe this, but that is a fact.

- 350 and others have claimed that PFT pilots don't go on to the majors very much. This a gross exageration. I was at GIA long before 9/11. Back then GIA had about 10-14 pilots leaving a month to go on to other airlines. About half of this number was Captains that had earlier PFT'd that were now getting hired at major airlines. Let me say this loudly so 350driver hears it well: GIA PFT'ers have been hired at EVERY major airline in the United States!!! Of course, many are now furloughed, but they have the seniority number, and they were not given any trouble at the interview about PFT'ing.

- About refunds: GIA has a pro-rated refund policy IN WRITING that is on every application that is filled out by prospective entrants. In the time I was at GIA, no one had a problem getting a refund if they failed out of the program or they simply decided to leave on their own. Everyone received their refunds and no lawyers were necessary.

Again, I realize that none of the Bobbysamds or 350drivers of the world are going to change their minds based on any of these facts. However, any new guys out there that are lurking deserve some truth mixed in with the rhetoric that comes from the anti-PFT crowd.

Any of you new guys out there that are considering PFT and need an objective viewpoint, don't hesitate to Private Message me.

 

[The_Russian]

I will start off by saying thank you.

You are right. I should relax and be more calm and selective with my posts. It's just that I can't help being offended by the things that are said by these guys.

Excellent job. I will take your advice.

 

[de727ups]

PCL

It was said not long ago that Gulfstream wouldn't exisit it it wasn't for PFT. That they would still be flying 402's part 135. The argument was that no jobs are taken away by Gulfstream style PFT because Gulfstream wouldn't be flying 1900's in the first place without F/O's as a revenue source.

Do you think that the added revenue provided by the PFT program offsets the added cost of a 1900 under 121 vs a 402 under 135? I think it's silly to think that the added revenue from the F/O's would pay for a 1900.

The reason I ask is because the main problem I have with Gulfstream and TAB is that they take away jobs which would otherwise be entry level regional positions. (I believe this is what TAB is trying to accomplish if and when they start their new airline). I don't have any problem with Amflight and Alpine timebuilding programs where you build time but don't occupy a required seat...that's just me, die hard anti-PFTer's would disagree.

Also, if Pinnicle adopts a PFT program, would you be in favor of it? How about Northwest?

 

[searching]

I have just joined this board, though I have been reading it for almost a year, and I have read all these PFT threads. I could care less about Gulfstream and Tab. I am a student at an aviation college, and we have talked about these programs. Not very many negative things have been said about them from either our instructors, or the guest speakers from airlines that come to recruit for internships. Only on this website.

But what I will say is, if Northwest airlines, or Pinnicle would require PFT, that would suck. I will flight instruct, but just because it gives me a tuition discount for my senior year.

 

[Timebuilder]

Not only does it put pressure on other pilots to be involved in PFT, it causes resentment among working pilots who did not PFT, since it demeans the profession as a whole.

I second bobbysamd's caution against making a career change while this industry is going through so many changes so quickly. There are still thousands of pilots who are out of work. Many, such as myself, will likely not find a decent job again. If you were twenty, I'd say get a degree in something else and flight instruct while building conections and friendships. Then, and ONLY then, would I recommend an airline career under these circumstances.

Good luck.

 

[labbats]

Please for the love of God, double space some of these posts. I'm going crosseyed.

And for what it's worth, I don't see how anyone can bash someone as giving of their time and energy as Bobby is.

 

[bobbysamd]

Insults and diatribes

When you go to Gulfstream you are not buying a job.[ CAN'T YOU SEE THAT. Read my posts and stop trying to turn them around on me. I am there and I know how the program works. F**K the FAQ and F**K your misinterpretation of my posts.

No f--k you, Bobby? (see below) (This is starting to sound like "The Sopranos.") Here, again, this is a situation of someone attacking the poster as opposed to attacking the poster's comments.

YOU DO NOT HAVE NOT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE

That is a double negative. Do they not learn you English at Gulfstream? Do you really mean to say, "you do not have any first-hand experience."

YOU HAVE NO FACTS . . . .

. . . . except what are posted on the Gulfstream Academy website.

I have over 1000 dual given and I am at GIA. I did my time. I CFI'd and worked ramp for 3 years. I have flown cargo and pax. I have rebuilt aircraft. I have flown jets. I have washed planes and the list goes on. I have been in aviation since before I could walk. So am I to be shunned out of the industry because I want to be more marketable?

So, with such good qualifications, why are you P-F-Ting at Gulfstream? I ask the question sincerely. The answer, by the way you comport yourself, appears to be self-evident.

And dont insult me with that Devil B*LLSH*T.

Well, you said that my comments compelled you to respond. I didn't realize I exerted such an influence on you, Russian. That's why I figured the devil made you do it.

You know what the difference between me and you is Bobby? I give facts and objective veiws.

Shouldn't that be "you and I?" So, provide some documentation to back them up.

You alter peoples posts to be what YOU think they mean or how you want to read it, and then you insult them.

Well, Russian, you did put up the following post on or about October 1, 2003:

Originally posted by The_Russian
Bobby, you stink . . . ..

Sticks and stones . . . but that sure smacks of "insult" to me . . .

Shut up Bobby. For once just shut the f**k up man. Nobody on this forum needs your two cents. And yes, I am insulting you too, but you deserve it.

How about, "f--k you, Bobby?" You forgot that one. Does my mother wear Army boots, Russian? Could your dad have whipped my dad? (My father died three years ago.)

Finally, about your comment questioning the need for Gulfstream to put its promises in writing, it is only prudent business practice, to protect both parties. There is a significant amount of cash changing hands. Yes, I am anti-P-F-T, but fair is fair. Gulfstream has rights in the transaction as well.

Thank you again for responding to my comments, Russian. I enjoy your posts, diatribes and insults. Please, write more! And include more insults. And, for your sake, I certainly hope that you have made the right decision.

Thanks for everyone's positive comments, which, as you know, I appreciate more than words can express.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

I second that...Bobby is a man of wisdom with lots to share with all of us (just lay off the age discrimination stuff, PLEASE?) All in jest...

Fair enough, my friend. But, I wouldn't spend the time I do presenting that issue if I didn't feel strongly about it and felt the need to advocate my position, especially concerning late-life career-changers. I wouldn't bring up this issue if I did not feel deep concern for these individuals.

 

[English]

Sorry Bobby...I thought ribbing you a little might lighten the tone of the thread a bit. I agree A LOT of thought needs to go into changing careers so late in one's life, or even changing from a stable career into anything related to aviation.

I'm glad we can disagree, though, without it getting personal, unlike some of the other posters on this thread, and on this board.

 

[bobbysamd]

Late-life career-changing

I agree A LOT of thought needs to go into changing careers so late in one's life, or even changing from a stable career into anything related to aviation.

(emphasis added)
. . . which has been the primary thrust of my age discrimination comments for late-life career changers.

Note that I do not cite age discrimination for over-forty pilots who have longevity in the business - those who are already well-qualified and whom the commuters should have hired long ago. It is the over-40 newbies, such as the orginal poster, who should give career-changing a great amount of thought, much less doing it at TAB. (Gulfstream omission is intentional, Russian.)

 

[350DRIVER]

PCL_128,

I think most can see right through what you have posted so I shall save my time and effort for the most part. I have to give you credit since atleast you seem to be able to convince yourself on why this program is "OK" and not "looked down on" since most are not going to be taking your side on this issue.. The fact of the matter is that the airlines other than the select "few" that get paid to take you will care very much about how you got to where you are at present day, re-read my previous posts. Let me reiterate it one more time, most all interview boards at the national/major level do care, bottom line young one... You cannot speak from experience with regards to this issue since your regional (pinnacle) had a "money" agreement to take you on once you completed X amount of hours in the 1900 at GIA, simple as that. When you say the GIA grads have been hired at "all" the majors/nationals that may be true to a certain degree but very deceptive in many ways but what you neglect to realize (or want to) is that these guys are surely in the minority, I would love to see the actual numbers/stats to back up what you are saying..There is a reason why GIA does not have any sort of agreement with the bigger, better, etc, regionals across the board.. If this program was in the best interest of the industry (which in no way is the case) then you would see the Comair's, Skywest's, of the industry taking you guys on after you have played around in the 1900 for 250 hours. You are in for a rude awakening once you go on to the next level, and given the present day shape of the industry I tend to think you will be at Pinnacle for many more years to come, I do hope that you get your day in the "spotlight" to justify this move to a national carrier where the two guys sitting across the table from you had to bust their @ss to make it to where they are present day. There are always exceptions and I think you need to use the word "exception" when speaking about these grads at the next level, I know quite a few in hr, mgmt, etc, all across the boards and I can tell you that my views are shared by most and they are held up during interviews. Just for kicks take a look at how many alpa pilots are on furlough with thousands of hours, multiple types, experience, etc. You honestly can say that you will be competitive against someone like this when you try to go to a ATA/AWA/Airtran/JetBlue, etc, ?


This program is bad for the industry mainly in part because it is telling people that after thousands of dollars in training spent, $18,000+ more for the 250 hours of 1900 time that it is "ok" for the company to pay the first officer a comical $8.00 per hour, this should be an outrage.. This is absolutely disgusting and how anyone could justify this is beyond my wildest imagination...


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[labbats]

350 Driver. I am not reading anything you post until you learn what a paragraph is.

 

[350DRIVER]

350 Driver. I am not reading anything you post until you learn what a paragraph is.

You will not be hurting my feelings by doing the above.


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[The_Russian]

Bobby,

I apologize for being so vulgar. Nonetheless, all you seem to do is rip me and my comrades up with your own propaganda. All I am trying to do is give you facts and all you can do in return is correct my spelling and grammar, then return to your bashing. Everythime you respond to my posts, you interpret my quotes as you would like to hear them said, not as they are. With as much popularity as you have on this site I would expect you to be more open minded that you have been. There are others out there that support me and my efforts. I assume that they are afraid to respond on this forum because you will slice their posts into segments and alter as you see fit. I do not believe this is acceptable. I request that you listen to what some of us have to say instead of commenting on the small things that aren't important. In fact, I cannot recall one instance where you have countered my post with a factual argument. I will retract my offensive last line a few posts back. However, I request that in return you open up a little, while listening to what I'm saying.