What Will Your Airline's Pay Be When Comair's Freeze Ends?

[DoinTime]

Comair would still be making about 10% more than Mesa even after the freeze. Payrates for Mesa 7 year 50-seat in 2007 will be $63.40 with a bump to $64.67 mid year. When you add in all the other work rules that have a direct effect on W2 statements you get a good understanding of how bad Mesa pilots whored themselves out.

 

[rattler]

SkyWest pilots are currently in negations with management for a new "contract". From what I can tell management is proposing a 1% pay raise for the pilot group. What length of time the new "contract" will be good for and all the specifics are still unknown. Assuming the 1% pay increase is implemented and the "contract" goes through in 2007 a 7 year, 50-99 seat captain at SkyWest will make approximately $70.04/hr

This is an honest question because I don't know. How do you negotiate, or who negotiates with managment. What leverage do you have, and who pays for the legal costs of writing your contract? I always though management just threw a competitive price out there and you guys were stuck with it. Please explain to me how it really works, and why you guys think you are better off without a union.

 

[~~~^~~~]

No, it's not obvious. Different times with different results. Today is not yesterday.

Yes it is obvious. The RFQ was post 9/11 with CHQ salivating for more airplanes and Delta losing tanker loads of cash. Now ASA and CHQ have as much training going on as they can handle, ASA is getting into the end game of contract negotiations and Comair is positioned for airplanes.

The differences are all in Comair's favor.

The only realy difference is that the Comair pilots are a different pilot group than they were a couple of years ago.

 

[I.P. Freley]

No, it's not obvious. Different times with different results. Today is not yesterday.

C'mon, chperplt, this is the same thing that you guys raped CHQ and Mesa pilots for saying just a couple of short years ago...

Well not YOU, exactly, but I can definitely see why just about every other regional pilot has lost patience with the standard Comair "line". Most of us have had at least one run-in with a Comair guy or gal carrying on about one or more of the following:

1- how they raised the bar and everyone else is lowering it

2- barking about someone else's concessionary contract

3- saying that the fact that your contract that you walked for was pre-9/11 and/or pre-recession is irrelevant to the fact that (insert airline here)'s new contract didn't improve enough (this relates somewhat to your comment)

4- that lesser contracts for growth makes everyone else whores

5- that there was NO EXCUSE AT ALL for someone else's new contract with lower pay rates than yours (usu. in relation to Freedom/Republic arguments)

And now...

6- even with a pay freeze we'll still be paid better than most everyone else for years to come

And the argument that you made on another, similar thread is the one that is the most curious of all... That if this passes, it's basically everyone ELSE'S fault (I think that "everyone else" is basically CHQ, though Mesa is still in the hot seat). I've liked reading your posts over the years chpr, but some of what I've read from you recently has me concerned. If you were still at your former employer you would probably see the irony, but it doesn't appear that you do NOW.

*sigh*

Either you guys raise the bar and keep it there, or you're just like everyone else... Just slightly better paid than some.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of what your vote does to ASA....

 

[Bluto]

This is an honest question because I don't know. How do you negotiate, or who negotiates with managment.

We have an employee group (SAPA) that has a pay committee that negotiates with management for us. When they come up with an agreement, it is submitted to the pilots for a vote. Similar to a real-live contract. When it gets voted in by our pilot group it becomes a part of our policy manual (similar to a union carrier's contract)

What leverage do you have,

The leverage that we have is basically the threat of a union and the cost of a disgruntled pilot group.

and who pays for the legal costs of writing your contract?

Our policies are written by management and SAPA volunteers, who are paid by management for their time. We don't have a legal contract so no lawyers are required to write it.

I always though management just threw a competitive price out there and you guys were stuck with it.

Wrong. While management could (and frequently does) change the policy manual without discussing it with the pilot group, simply mandating new pay rates without any review or approval by the pilot group would be very, very bad for their relationship with the pilots. I have a feeling a union vote and representation would follow very quickly.

Please explain to me how it really works, and why you guys think you are better off without a union.

It's no secret that SkyWest management would prefer to keep a union off property. Many pilots feel we are not, necessarily better off without a union. There are rumors floating around about an ALPA drive later this year. Other rumors suggest that management considers a unionized pilot group as inevitable, which is one reason for a token 1% pay raise. Some feel they have stopped trying to convince the pilot group we don't need a union and are now employing more of a "containment" policy.

 

[CLE145CA]

I would like to take a poll to see what 50-seat Jet Captain Pay will be at different regional carriers at the time that Comair's pay freeze ends. I would like to compare those that have a current contract (that will have annual Date of Service and Contractual Yearly increases until at least 2007), such as Express Jet, Chautauqua, American Eagle, Mesa, PSA, and maybe SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, and Trans States.

My contention is that Comair (in the middle of 2007) will then be among the lowest-paid regional 50-seat jet captains.

To make this standardized, let's consider what a current 5-year captain will be making in 2007, thus what is your 7-year captain pay under your 2007 pay table?

At Comair, a 5-year 50-seat captain is paid $68.13 (definitely the highest-paid out there). But in 2007, that now 7-year Comair captain is still being paid $68.13, and if they get their 2% raise finally in the Summer of 2007, they will be getting $69.49. Thus, a 7-year 50-seat Comair captain in 2007 will be getting paid $68.13-$69.49, depending on what part of the year.

Two airlines that I can find contracts for are ExpressJet and Chautauqua. So, here are their numbers:

ExpressJet: 7-year 50-seat captain eff. 12/07 ---- $72.93 (4.95% more than Comair's $69.49 in 12/07)

Chautauqua: 7-year 50-seat captain eff. 12/07 ---- $71.21 (2.48% more than Comair's $69.49 in 10/07)

I think it is a much bigger difference than that. Granted we are talking hourly rates here, but ExpressJet also has the profit sharing plan which paid in excess of 8.2% of salary this year.

For a fifth year 50-seat captain at ExpressJet that equates to roughly $69.75 per hour for the month of December 2004. Though you can't count on profit sharing as a guarantee forever, it is there for this contract cycle. Given that, ExpressJet pilots are probably ahead of Comair pilots in pay as of now. (Note: ExpressJet pilots were paid profit sharing for the portion of 2004 in which they were in the profit sharing plan. This was the month of December since the contract signing date was 12/1/04.)

Just adding that as some food for thought in the discussion as well. The forecast profit sharing is expected to be between 5% and 7% per year over the life of our current contract.

 

[Ace McCoy]

Mesaba

At Mesaba in Jan 07 a 7 year 40 to 59 seat jet captain will make $72.31. And in Jan 08 a 7 year captain will be at $75.20.

But then again we have no 50 seat jets, so nevermind.

What will their 70 seat pay be by then? That could be more relevant for XJ. But I'm sure we are far behind because our Avro rates are kinda bad.

 

[328dude]

PSA 7 yr Captain on the 50 seater is 73.65 in 07
PSA 7 yr Captain on the 70 seater is 75.50 in 07

Since our payrates are blended, 74 and change would be the 7 yr payrate in 07

 

[Flying Horses]

Flying Horsies,

Your facts are not quite accurate. Under the LOA, the next longevity bump would be the normal paytable slide. That is, the 5 year Capt making $68.13 would be moved up to $70.13. It would happen on June 1, 2007 or later in the year if your hire date was later. The 2% bump you spoke of would occur in Jan 2008, bringing the $70.13 to $71.53.

Im still voting no, but if you want to flame us, at least get it right.

First of all, I'm not trying to flame anyone. I am just trying to state some facts as well as give my opinion. I support the pilot's at Comair, for we, as regional pilots, are all brothers in the same boat. However, I do believe that these concessions are bad for everybody, including Comair pilots for reasons stated in my first post.

Secondly, as you and others have pointed out, I did make a mistake in my understanding of the TA. I originally wrote that Comair pilots would get a 2% raise at the end of the freeze in June 2007, but actually they would get their next longevity raise, which in the case of my hypothetical captain, would be $70.23. (I see now that the 2% raise I mentioned will be received in 2008, so I won't use his in my comparison of pay in 2007.) I have adjusted my original post to reflect this new accurate information.

However, this does not change the point. (I was only off by 74 cents.) The 50-seat Comair captain in 2007, will be getting paid lower than at most other regional carriers, if this TA concession package passes.

Here are the numbers I have gotten so far of the pay for the 7-year 50-seat jet captain in 2007:

PSA ------------ $73.65
ExpressJet ------ $72.93
Mesaba --------- $72.31
CHQ ------------ $71.21
Comair ---------- $70.23
SkyWest -------- $70.04
ASA ------------ $67.61 (this is from their very old contract)

And this is what Comair would be getting in 2007, if these concessions are NOT passed: $78.01

$78.01 vs. $70.23 = a 10% PAYCUT (10% of pay that will NEVER be regained, only 2% will be gotten back in 2008)

 

[Bluto]

I think this is a very interesting thread. Unfortunately, it would have been most valuable before the vote. At this point, unless I am mistaken, the Comair pilots are basically done voting.

 

[kc81900]

SkyWest pilots are currently in negations with management for a new "contract". From what I can tell management is proposing a 1% pay raise for the pilot group. What length of time the new "contract" will be good for and all the specifics are still unknown. Assuming the 1% pay increase is implemented and the "contract" goes through in 2007 a 7 year, 50-99 seat captain at SkyWest will make approximately $70.04/hr

Here is a perfect example of what is wrong in this industry. 50 - 99 seat pay rates $70.24. How can you agree to fly 70 - 99 seats for subpar 50 seat rates. Well I guess in the race to the bottom it must feel good to be one of the leaders (Skywest will never be accused of taking a back seat to Mesa)

 

[100LL... Again!]

What a load of BS. Like ANY of you really care what happens at someone else's airline.

Hypothetical scenario: Suppose Airline XYZ's pilots were to get an industry-leading contract that for whatever reason caused another pilot group to have less negotiating leverage. Granted, that is a hypothetical scenario, but just suppose.

Do you really think that anyone at airline A would give up compensation for the "good of the profession". Hah!

Phrases like "raising the bar", "taking one for the team" and "protecting the profession" are nothing but propaganda BS. We all know that in the long run it will be every man (or pilot group) for himself.

History has not given us any reason to believe otherwise. Whining about what other pilot groups get for their contracts may allow you to vent off some steam, but here's a REALLY BIG F-ING CLUE:

If they thought they could get more cash out of management, they woulda tried to get it - for their own sakes. And selling out for more airplanes? Well, if the majority of the pilots want it, who cares?
(Note correct use of pilots not pilot's)


This profession was doomed to go down the drain due to low standards of entry and an over-emphasis on "getting what we deserve" and a VERY DEFINITE underemphasis on deserving what we get.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

And this is what Comair would be getting in 2007, if these concessions are NOT passed: $78.01

$78.01 vs. $70.23 = a 10% PAYCUT (10% of pay that will NEVER be regained, only 2% will be gotten back in 2008)

In my version of the contract, a 7-yr 50 Captain would be making $75.66, not $78.01.

But remember, the pay tables are not changing, just where are pilot falls on them.

[font=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Captain CRJ 50 / 44 / 40 [/font]
[font=TimesNewRoman,Bold][/font][font=Arial,Bold]YOS 6/22/01 6/22/02 6/22/03 6/22/04 6/22/05[/font]
[font=Arial,Bold]1 [/font][font=Arial,Bold][/font]$54.40 $56.03 $57.99 $60.31 $63.02
[font=Arial,Bold]2 [/font]$56.09 $57.77 $59.79 $62.18 $64.98
[font=Arial,Bold]3 [/font]$57.81 $59.54 $61.62 $64.08 $66.96
[font=Arial,Bold]4 [/font]$59.61 $61.40 $63.55 $66.09 $69.06
[font=Arial,Bold]5 [/font]$61.45 $63.29 $65.51 $68.13 $71.20

[font=Arial,Bold]6 [/font]$63.35 $65.25 $67.53 $70.23 $73.39​

[font=Arial,Bold]7 [/font]$65.31 $67.27 $69.62 $72.40 $75.66
[font=Arial,Bold]8 [/font]$67.33 $69.35 $71.78 $74.65 $78.01
[font=Arial,Bold]9 [/font]$69.41 $71.49 $73.99 $76.95 $80.41
[font=Arial,Bold]10 [/font]$71.56 $73.71 $76.29 $79.34 $82.91
[font=Arial,Bold]11 [/font]$73.77 $75.98 $78.64 $81.79 $85.47

[font=Arial,Bold]12 [/font]$76.05 $78.33 $81.07 $84.31 $88.10​

[font=Arial,Bold]13 [/font][font=Arial,Bold][/font]$78.41 $80.76 $83.59 $86.93 $90.84​

[font=Arial,Bold]14 [/font]$80.83 $83.25 $86.16 $89.61 $93.64​

[font=Arial,Bold]15 [/font]$83.33 $85.83 $88.83 $92.38 $100.00​

[font=Arial,Bold]16 [/font][font=Arial,Bold][/font]$85.83 $88.40 $91.49 $95.15 $101.75​

[font=Arial,Bold]17 [/font]$85.83 $91.05 $94.24 $98.01 $103.25​

[font=Arial,Bold]18 [/font][font=Arial,Bold][/font]$85.83 $91.05 $97.06 $101.00 $105.55​

 

[SNK]

The pay tables DO change

In my version of the contract, a 7-yr 50 Captain would be making $75.66, not $78.01.

But remember, the pay tables are not changing, just where are pilot falls on them.

Mike,

You're statement here is completely wrong!! The pay tables DO change. The 6/22/05 column of the pay tables disappear under the terms of this LOA. This is one of the biggest reasons why this whole LOA is offensive, at best. It leaves us in a weaker starting position going in to the next round of negotiations.
Again, the 6/22/05 pay table column DISAPPEARS under this LOA.

Respectfully,

SNK

 

[my-driveby]

Why are all the comparisons between 50 seat rates? Anyone who has the time should comare the 70 seat rates. Not just 7yr. Captain either. Doesn't this LOA have more to do with 70's than 50's.

 

[Bluto]

Here is a perfect example of what is wrong in this industry. 50 - 99 seat pay rates $70.24. How can you agree to fly 70 - 99 seats for subpar 50 seat rates. Well I guess in the race to the bottom it must feel good to be one of the leaders (Skywest will never be accused of taking a back seat to Mesa)

When Skywest pilots voted on this concession, it was billed as an 18-month LOA that would only apply to the 70-seaters (not the 70-99 since there was no way they would receive any during the life of the TA). There is a very close parallel to what is going on at Comair right now, except that the SkyWest agreement was much shorter-term. SkyWest pilots were promised (and received) 70-seat growth in exchange for a short-term concession. SkyWest pilots were told if they voted yes, they wouldn't be sorry, and that the company would take care of them when the 18 months was up if they "dealt the company an ace". Well, the 18-months was up as of the end of '04 and the best "offer" SkyWest pilots have heard of is a 1% raise and inclusion in a bonus program (after 2 years with the company), with no split in the 50-70 seat rates. This is still under negotiation, but sources high up suggest that a 1% raise is all SkyWest pilots will see, and that there is no chance to split the rates. Many SkyWest pilots see this as a direct contradiction to what they were told nearly 2 years ago. Of course this is frustrating.

As frustrating as this turn of events may be, the SkyWest agreement is far and away better than Mesa's. Ask any Mesa pilot. To even compare the two shows a significant lack of understanding of both company's policies. It's pathetic to me to see people accusing SkyWest of leading the "race to the bottom" while giving Comair pilots, and everyone else who has taken concessions recently a pass. Few people at SkyWest consider the 70-seat deal a success for the pilots, but the SkyWest pilot group is now having to deal with the TA they agreed to. Hopefully, a fair and beneficial agreement will be reached. Otherwise, you'll see some pretty upset SkyWest pilots.

 

[bayoubandit]

I don't know about you Bluto, but I am already seeing a whole bunch of upset and pissed off SKW pilots.

The problem with dealing an ace is that know one asked any questions to what the ace exactly was. What were we going to get in return? Growth was a given.

Mgmt. sold a great line and the majority bought it. Some knew and they voted NO. A horrible precedent has been set within SKW and will be next to impossible to break.

The past is the past, but I sure hope that lessons were learned on this one.

 

[Bluto]

I agree 100%

 

[General Lee]

Thank Gawd those SkyWest lawyers had the United agreement ready by 7am the next morning! They must have worked all through the night eating pizzas and drinking tons of coffee!



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Crossky]

I don't know about you Bluto, but I am already seeing a whole bunch of upset and pissed off SKW pilots.

The problem with dealing an ace is that know one asked any questions to what the ace exactly was. What were we going to get in return? Growth was a given.

Mgmt. sold a great line and the majority bought it. Some knew and they voted NO. A horrible precedent has been set within SKW and will be next to impossible to break.

The past is the past, but I sure hope that lessons were learned on this one.

Here you all go again, complaining about your management not making true on their promises. Respectfully, let's remember that your pilot group does not have a union, only a pilot association. Your company management can do whatever they want to. Furthermore, your pilot group voted NO last year to organize as a union. I'm sorry, your whining is going out on deaf ears.

You're still getting longevity raises right? If so then a 1% raise plus profit sharing should be a good deal in this market, especially for a non-union pilot group. Remember, you don't pay 2.5% Union dues as well, with my paycheck that's another 62 bucks a month that I don't see.