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What will Flex do?
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Peter_Griffin
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Back to the original thought here -- what will flex do? Who knows but I can guarantee if they don't do something, I for one will be leaving. And I know of several others (10 plus at last count) who are actively scouting other jobs in addition to myself. Couple that with the fact that we will no longer get qualified/competetive candidates and flex is up a river.
The company's not great, but not the worst either. Not something I would want to leave for any other job, but not also one I'd sacrifice for at all. For you captains out there who are more or less locked in with fewer options than us guys only in a few years, think about all the fo's you like flying with and how quickly they'd be gone and how quickly your fo seat with be filled with some of the morons you guys are always complaining about (or at least to me). I've had many many of you tell me to get out now and how you wish you had that option.
For me it's quality of life first (which SUCKS here lately you must admit) and money second but money is still a very close second.
No, I won't post on bluebelly cuz I'm not stupid and neither will 95% of those who are looking for greener pastures. For the guy who used Kip, Peyton etc... as an example of being able to speak out and not get fired you are wrong. I do not think any oh them have spoken anywhere near the truth of how most are feeling. I can tell you for a fact having spoken with them personally, they are't saying nearly as much on Bluebelly as they do just hanging around Teterboro so I don't think that's a good example at all...
And to the idiots on the BB rumors board, while it's true no one forced me to take this job, it's also true they aren't doing very much to make me want to stay. The training contract is no longer an issue for me, but at this point I'd leave anyway if it were and pay them back out of the bigger checks I'd get elsewhere.
Sorry so long, but maybe there's some of you out there that really don't know this is how a lot of us feel -- don't believe me? -- ask your co-pilot if they are honestly looking elsewhere and if they trust you, you might be surprised how many of them will answer hell yes. Nothing against flex, but if they don't change I wouldn't want to stick around and be miserable and locked in 10 years from now.
For me to stick around a while they have to at least match it. To make it a career job, they'd have to get rid of the pilots are a dime a dozen mentality D Gross and so many higher ups have.
The company's not great, but not the worst either. Not something I would want to leave for any other job, but not also one I'd sacrifice for at all. For you captains out there who are more or less locked in with fewer options than us guys only in a few years, think about all the fo's you like flying with and how quickly they'd be gone and how quickly your fo seat with be filled with some of the morons you guys are always complaining about (or at least to me). I've had many many of you tell me to get out now and how you wish you had that option.
For me it's quality of life first (which SUCKS here lately you must admit) and money second but money is still a very close second.
No, I won't post on bluebelly cuz I'm not stupid and neither will 95% of those who are looking for greener pastures. For the guy who used Kip, Peyton etc... as an example of being able to speak out and not get fired you are wrong. I do not think any oh them have spoken anywhere near the truth of how most are feeling. I can tell you for a fact having spoken with them personally, they are't saying nearly as much on Bluebelly as they do just hanging around Teterboro so I don't think that's a good example at all...
And to the idiots on the BB rumors board, while it's true no one forced me to take this job, it's also true they aren't doing very much to make me want to stay. The training contract is no longer an issue for me, but at this point I'd leave anyway if it were and pay them back out of the bigger checks I'd get elsewhere.
Sorry so long, but maybe there's some of you out there that really don't know this is how a lot of us feel -- don't believe me? -- ask your co-pilot if they are honestly looking elsewhere and if they trust you, you might be surprised how many of them will answer hell yes. Nothing against flex, but if they don't change I wouldn't want to stick around and be miserable and locked in 10 years from now.
For me to stick around a while they have to at least match it. To make it a career job, they'd have to get rid of the pilots are a dime a dozen mentality D Gross and so many higher ups have.
Peter,
I agree with everything you said except 1 thing. Almost all the captains I know are actively looking also. While their options maybe a little more limiting. Some will take a lateral step just to get out. My schedule the last few months, heck years, has sucked. Plus I have been working my butt off. Not that I am affraid of working, but on our schedule it is hard.
My only point with the BB is that if everyone posted how they felt then management would see the true picture. You know, the BIG picture they always talk about. HAHA!! Who knows maybe our wonderful managers will do their touchy feely phone calls again. What a joke that was. I am far from a company koolaid drinker.
I do know they better get off their arses and make an announcement about what they are going to do. The natives are getting very restless. Their lack of crew involvement with this is hurting them tremendously. They say the crews are the most important part of flex...well show us then. They dont want us to be unhappy and drive owners away (Not that we would act in a unprofessional way). Prove it to us.
I agree with everything you said except 1 thing. Almost all the captains I know are actively looking also. While their options maybe a little more limiting. Some will take a lateral step just to get out. My schedule the last few months, heck years, has sucked. Plus I have been working my butt off. Not that I am affraid of working, but on our schedule it is hard.
My only point with the BB is that if everyone posted how they felt then management would see the true picture. You know, the BIG picture they always talk about. HAHA!! Who knows maybe our wonderful managers will do their touchy feely phone calls again. What a joke that was. I am far from a company koolaid drinker.
I do know they better get off their arses and make an announcement about what they are going to do. The natives are getting very restless. Their lack of crew involvement with this is hurting them tremendously. They say the crews are the most important part of flex...well show us then. They dont want us to be unhappy and drive owners away (Not that we would act in a unprofessional way). Prove it to us.
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Peter_Griffin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Posts
- 85
Vixen,
My impression is that management has no desire to see the big picture let alone the true picture and posting on BB is a big risk in addition to it just being a waste of time if only to fall on deaf ears...
Quality of life issues are the biggest problem at flex right now. I get the impression management is waiting as long as they can (at least not til after nj ratification) to annouce a plan they've already had formulated with several contingincies for quite some time now. Heck, they kept owners in the dark (aka lied) about cruise speeds for months -- you think they are beyond shafting us dime a dozen pilots for a few more weeks...
If they don't have a plan yet I would consider that irresponsible and just plain unacceptable. Once again they must think we're idiots to have us believing they are still working on it -- and if they really are still working on it I would question the level of competence at Waterview -- we have ALL known this would eventually come up -- it's not like the contract was a total surprise, just a better one than anyone realistically thought possible.
I for one would like to see at a minimum them match the pay and duty days structure and then as secondary issues consider a 7/7 -- much better than the 6/4 and might save the company some $$ to -- or 4 day max trips and a guarantee last day arrival back to gateway earlier than midnight. Us pilots with kids are hurting on these schedules and the days are long and grueling -- like 14 hour days are the norm now. You need a whole day to recover when you do get home. And I'd like to see them match match NJ on the company paid benies -- this new plan is gonna suck...
Any suggestions -- maybe this board gets seen by more than we know...
My impression is that management has no desire to see the big picture let alone the true picture and posting on BB is a big risk in addition to it just being a waste of time if only to fall on deaf ears...
Quality of life issues are the biggest problem at flex right now. I get the impression management is waiting as long as they can (at least not til after nj ratification) to annouce a plan they've already had formulated with several contingincies for quite some time now. Heck, they kept owners in the dark (aka lied) about cruise speeds for months -- you think they are beyond shafting us dime a dozen pilots for a few more weeks...
If they don't have a plan yet I would consider that irresponsible and just plain unacceptable. Once again they must think we're idiots to have us believing they are still working on it -- and if they really are still working on it I would question the level of competence at Waterview -- we have ALL known this would eventually come up -- it's not like the contract was a total surprise, just a better one than anyone realistically thought possible.
I for one would like to see at a minimum them match the pay and duty days structure and then as secondary issues consider a 7/7 -- much better than the 6/4 and might save the company some $$ to -- or 4 day max trips and a guarantee last day arrival back to gateway earlier than midnight. Us pilots with kids are hurting on these schedules and the days are long and grueling -- like 14 hour days are the norm now. You need a whole day to recover when you do get home. And I'd like to see them match match NJ on the company paid benies -- this new plan is gonna suck...
Any suggestions -- maybe this board gets seen by more than we know...
DO-82 driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2004
- Posts
- 778
Peter....
If its broke....write it up.
If you're tired....don't fly.
Make sure you do very thorough preflight and post flight.
Use O2 above FL350 on 135 flights. O2 bottle low upon arrival...sorry need O2.
Tire pressure is very critical.
It took a while here at NJA, and not everybody was on the same page, but in the end I believe it had some effect.
Good Luck
If its broke....write it up.
If you're tired....don't fly.
Make sure you do very thorough preflight and post flight.
Use O2 above FL350 on 135 flights. O2 bottle low upon arrival...sorry need O2.
Tire pressure is very critical.
It took a while here at NJA, and not everybody was on the same page, but in the end I believe it had some effect.
Good Luck
G100driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2002
- Posts
- 2,094
ce750drvr said:
Not that I want to work there either, but MAN .... meow meow. I have been reading this thread and my jaw has been dropping. Take a stand men. A lot of NetJet guys may have used this board as a sounding board for whinning but at least they took a stand and a risk. Funny thing, it seems like they got results as well.
SSHHHEEESSSS ... Gimmie a break.
Please also remember that collective bargining is a right.
When I'm on the road, I hear this;
1. managment doesn't care.
2. if we ask for to much Montreal will shut us down.
3. 7 days off STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACK PIPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Don't kill the golden goose.
5.wait and see, flex will step up to the plate.
6. could be flying frieght
7. chill out.
8. we will continue to hire qualified & quality people
9. Lets continue to get the job done.
10 chill out our happiness isn't based on how much someone else is making.
11. I've heard very little about the price of insurance going up.
These maybe insignificant, but the attitude at flex is very passive.(except for the attrition rate.) We are entering our busy season short handed. We now are fly 5 or 6 legs a day, 14 hr. duty days, min rest, show times are manipulated to accommodate our rest while allowing pax to show when were not ready, and much more. This isn't any news to anybody at flex, but we make it work the best we can. Soon we will be back to continous 6 on and 3 off. And we will get a big ada boy on the voice mail.
Flex is starting to grow, the 300s are sold out for over a year, they are bringing on 604s to accommodate the 300 owners. More 40s & 45s, yet we are running short on pilots!!!!!!!! Who would want to come to flex? this is who, everybody who NJA, CS, and Flops rejects. Why would flex be anybodys first choice, err except to build time. I came to work here for the 16 to 17 days in a 28 day bid period. For years I thought NJA and the teamsters were a joke. Boy was I wrong.
Waterview, explain how you are going to solve these little problems, can you afford to loose the core of pilots that you have had for 5 years or more. can you afford to turn the majority of work over to pilots with little experience. Much less the cost to train them. Or what about the rising cost of charter. I once thought this was a place I wanted to stay, and I will if managment does not step up to the plate and match what NJA has I'm jumping ship with the rest. WE will chill and leave at a rate you can't keep up with, then what will the golden goose have.
1. managment doesn't care.
2. if we ask for to much Montreal will shut us down.
3. 7 days off STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACK PIPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Don't kill the golden goose.
5.wait and see, flex will step up to the plate.
6. could be flying frieght
7. chill out.
8. we will continue to hire qualified & quality people
9. Lets continue to get the job done.
10 chill out our happiness isn't based on how much someone else is making.
11. I've heard very little about the price of insurance going up.
These maybe insignificant, but the attitude at flex is very passive.(except for the attrition rate.) We are entering our busy season short handed. We now are fly 5 or 6 legs a day, 14 hr. duty days, min rest, show times are manipulated to accommodate our rest while allowing pax to show when were not ready, and much more. This isn't any news to anybody at flex, but we make it work the best we can. Soon we will be back to continous 6 on and 3 off. And we will get a big ada boy on the voice mail.
Flex is starting to grow, the 300s are sold out for over a year, they are bringing on 604s to accommodate the 300 owners. More 40s & 45s, yet we are running short on pilots!!!!!!!! Who would want to come to flex? this is who, everybody who NJA, CS, and Flops rejects. Why would flex be anybodys first choice, err except to build time. I came to work here for the 16 to 17 days in a 28 day bid period. For years I thought NJA and the teamsters were a joke. Boy was I wrong.
Waterview, explain how you are going to solve these little problems, can you afford to loose the core of pilots that you have had for 5 years or more. can you afford to turn the majority of work over to pilots with little experience. Much less the cost to train them. Or what about the rising cost of charter. I once thought this was a place I wanted to stay, and I will if managment does not step up to the plate and match what NJA has I'm jumping ship with the rest. WE will chill and leave at a rate you can't keep up with, then what will the golden goose have.
nightfr8er
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2005
- Posts
- 56
What will Flex Do?
Since this is my first post, I have lots of questions for those of you that are already at the Flex. Sounds like the crew rest issues are the same across the industry. What I want to know is, would you encourage someone to leave the "Connection" industry to go to the Flex for the long term? I have an interview that will be set up in the early part of Dec, and want to know as much as you can tell me. The senior guys seem to like it. How bad are the schedules? How is with cleaning the airplanes and throwing bags for the customers. I don't mind doing some work, but I don't want to be treated like a servant.
I've been told that the upgrade is about 4 yrs right now. Is that true from where you sit? I saw someone else post that he would upgrade in about 2 yrs. Does that mean that he's already been there for 2 yrs?
I'm in the left seat in the "connection" business, and facing a long term pay-cut and possible demotion to the right seat (who knows for how long?) Which place would you pick? The Flex or the Net?
c-ya
Since this is my first post, I have lots of questions for those of you that are already at the Flex. Sounds like the crew rest issues are the same across the industry. What I want to know is, would you encourage someone to leave the "Connection" industry to go to the Flex for the long term? I have an interview that will be set up in the early part of Dec, and want to know as much as you can tell me. The senior guys seem to like it. How bad are the schedules? How is with cleaning the airplanes and throwing bags for the customers. I don't mind doing some work, but I don't want to be treated like a servant.
I've been told that the upgrade is about 4 yrs right now. Is that true from where you sit? I saw someone else post that he would upgrade in about 2 yrs. Does that mean that he's already been there for 2 yrs?
I'm in the left seat in the "connection" business, and facing a long term pay-cut and possible demotion to the right seat (who knows for how long?) Which place would you pick? The Flex or the Net?
c-ya
hatetoadmitit
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- Jul 20, 2005
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DO-82 driver
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Sky Pirate
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- Sep 21, 2005
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The fact of the matter is that Flexjet will have to respond soon. 15 Lear 60XRs were just ordered by Flexjet at NBAA. Add that with the current orders of Challenger 300s, Lear 40/45s and the fact attrition has been crazy, soon they won't have any pilots to fly the nice shiny jets and owners are going to start to wonder why planes are parked and chartering is up. I currently work for Flex but will be making the move soon, because of a significantly better job offer. Any new pilots out there, if you have the choice between Netjets and Flex choose Netjets. I wouldn't have said this a year ago, but I think everyone can agree that they have come a long way since the New MEC was voted in. The other fractions will have to repond making the fraction industry a better long term career move. My advice to Netjet guys, start talking to the Flex pilots about Unionizing and I think you'll be surprised on how many will be interested on what you have to say. I think by pilots working together, there respective companies will have no choice but to provide better salaries and benefits. Lets not be like the regionals.
Bottom line: Bombardier will not sell Flexjet, because it is their best way to sell business aircraft.
Bottom line: Bombardier will not sell Flexjet, because it is their best way to sell business aircraft.
Sky Pirate
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gunfyter said:
What company does want a union, really? Sorry about reading your thoughts
Bombardier does not want the thought of a union to even come up, but it has been used in the past for a better QOL. I know the thought of bringing up the union question has gotten people fired in the past(which is illegal, by the way), but the industry may just have to be unionized to keep the people who run the place(pilots) happy. This should be the long term goal for the fractionals, because once this happens the 135 industry will have to respond to stay competative, which will force the unsafe companies to go out of business, which they deserve, thus creating a competative and safer industry. Lets cut the fat. Good companies will always find a way to make money in this industry, its not the airlines, where your customer is someone who is just getting by, we are dealing with the movers and the shakers of the world. They refuse to give up this type of service that we provide, and will in the end pay the premium.
Peter_Griffin
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- Nov 5, 2005
- Posts
- 85
I’m glad to see by recent postings to the internal company message board that this particular message board is being monitored by at the very least the flex’s chief pilot.
But still the big question remains -- WHAT IS FLEX GOING TO DO??? We don’t want to know three weeks from now as promised in the post – we want to know now. (Just like I predicted – they will wait and see what happens with ratification before they act.)
According to our fearless leader, a 5 year flex capt makes 6k more than a NJ capt after the TA. But he didn’t address the fact that NJ captains will be working 40 some less days per year. So by my math, is $150 enough to keep you home from your family? If your answer is yes then by all means go to flex, wait 10 years to make it to that point and then make a measly 6k more...
Qualified new hires – a MAJOR issue of viability for all fracs at this point – do not look at 10 years down the line when making a choice – they look at the next few years. All fracs right now have long upgrade times, so the issue comes down to $$ and quality of life.
In my humble opinion, $$ doesn’t matter much if you hate your job. And contrary to popular opinion I think most people WANT to love their job. I know I do. Please, management, help us LOVE our jobs. Make us want to stay, and more importantly, make others envy the sh*t out of us.
Do I need to go into why QOL at flex sucks right now – I’m already too long winded as it is… but one thing not mentioned yet is the new health plan SUCKS! We got screwed to the wall on this one – and quite outta the blue too.
But still the big question remains -- WHAT IS FLEX GOING TO DO??? We don’t want to know three weeks from now as promised in the post – we want to know now. (Just like I predicted – they will wait and see what happens with ratification before they act.)
According to our fearless leader, a 5 year flex capt makes 6k more than a NJ capt after the TA. But he didn’t address the fact that NJ captains will be working 40 some less days per year. So by my math, is $150 enough to keep you home from your family? If your answer is yes then by all means go to flex, wait 10 years to make it to that point and then make a measly 6k more...
Qualified new hires – a MAJOR issue of viability for all fracs at this point – do not look at 10 years down the line when making a choice – they look at the next few years. All fracs right now have long upgrade times, so the issue comes down to $$ and quality of life.
In my humble opinion, $$ doesn’t matter much if you hate your job. And contrary to popular opinion I think most people WANT to love their job. I know I do. Please, management, help us LOVE our jobs. Make us want to stay, and more importantly, make others envy the sh*t out of us.
Do I need to go into why QOL at flex sucks right now – I’m already too long winded as it is… but one thing not mentioned yet is the new health plan SUCKS! We got screwed to the wall on this one – and quite outta the blue too.
Fozzy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 889
Another group that needs a Union. Guys, they will not give you one penny. You have to fight for it. So all those years that the Flex/CS/FLOPS guys were asking, "when are you guys getting your contract so we can get a raise?", you are getting what you deserve. It is time for you all to get off you collective butts, and negotiate what you believe you are worth. I wish you the best of luck.
Or you can continue to cry here. We will listen. But that is all.
Or you can continue to cry here. We will listen. But that is all.
cosmotheassman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2004
- Posts
- 465
How is NJA going to pay for this contract long term with continuing losses???
I want a raise but not at the expense of people losing their jobs....
and yes, the new health plan SUCKS, I totally agree. The cost doubled for everyone.
I would be ok with bringing the work days down to 180 and keep the same annual pay. I think alot of people at flex would be happy with just that.
Any comments??
I want a raise but not at the expense of people losing their jobs....
and yes, the new health plan SUCKS, I totally agree. The cost doubled for everyone.
I would be ok with bringing the work days down to 180 and keep the same annual pay. I think alot of people at flex would be happy with just that.
Any comments??
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