What will Flex do?

[nightfr8er]

Hey hatetoadmitit - thanks for the side by side look. I had been reading the new contract post on the IBT site for NJA. I was beginning to think that the balance tipped heavily in NJ's corner, but I really appreciate the time to do the comp.

Someboy mentioned that the upgrade at all the fracs is long. Does that include NJA? How long is it? I heard that a lot of the bypassed FO's will be upgrading so that kind of skews things, but any guess?

Would anybody rather be at Cont, Jetbl or Airtr rather than where they are at a frac?

You guys rock!

 

[gunfyter]

guess 4 to 5 yrs to upgrade NJA. 1000 SICs on the property need to upgrade before next newhire.

CS would likely be the quickest upgrade IMO. Why? Largest increase in fleet size percentage wise compared to the current fleet size.

 

[miles otoole]

guess 4 to 5 yrs to upgrade NJA. 1000 SICs on the property need to upgrade before next newhire.

CS would likely be the quickest upgrade IMO. Why? Largest increase in fleet size percentage wise compared to the current fleet size.

That's historical. Upgrades going forward aren't based on historical fleet growth. They are based on future fleet growth. Big difference. That's akin to saying stock xyz will increase 50% per year because it has done so in the past. Just don't be overly excited about NJA mgmt saying they plan to take the same number of aircraft going forward than they have been in the past. The future owners drive deliveries, not some management lackey simply saying they want x number of planes. It's a bit different animal than the airlines where you can always fill new aircraft deliveries by simply lowering the price to increase demand.

 

[gunfyter]

I am not overly excited. I am saying with 1000 SICs on the property its not reasonable to expect more than 200 upgrades a yr. Maybe one yr there could be more. Best case is 4 to 5 yrs to upgrade... is a guess.

another way to look at it is if you come in at #2400... with 60/40 Capt/SIC ratio... there needs to be 4000 pilots on the property before you upgrade... or 1600 more than there are now.

How long will it take NJA to hire 1600 pilots? More than 4 yrs I think.

 

[bluepost]

Any 5 yr flex guys care to comment on the 6k more a year statement? Just curious.

Under the TA a 5 yr captain will make 90k base, $2960 MINIMUM on holiday pay (working the line that works the least holidays per year), and MINIMUM of 5k in hourly OT. That is 98k for 182 days a year.

If flex guys work 40 days more a year our reserve would be in the ballpark in days work (yet on reserve/on call which Flex guys aren't on) and that would pay about 112k-114k minimum with no ext days for 216 days a year.

So does a flex guy make 104k a year or 118k?

 

[cosmotheassman]

Bluepost are you guessing at the OT and holiday pay??? I don't understand your math on the flexjet side of it... Can you break it down for us simple folks with only bachelors degrees???

 

[bluepost]

Sorry..should of been more clear...regarding my flex numbers I added the "6k a year more" to my netjets numbers to get what Flex management is saying Flex pilots make.

As for as the holiday/OT pay...Holiday pay is not a guess, it is actually the minimum you will make on a line if you stay on that 7and7 all year. $3k is the minimum and about 6K is the most you can make in holiday pay (unless you extend on those holidays you aren't sked to work)

Hourly OT is a wag...the union claimed 7-9k I think, I used 5k as a very conservative number.

I have made 5k in hourly OT so far this year under this contract and its lousy pay, but I am on the 17 day tour and have 3 tours a month which is a 50% increase in first day starts which is where a large amount of OT is made. So 7k in hourly OT should be easy to attain.

I am in no way trying to beat anyone down...I just want to make sure this info is out there and very clear so what XYZ management comes and shows that a 5th year guy is making 90k "the same as NJ" that all the comparisons are made and added such as:

Hourly OT
Holiday Pay
$0 monthly cost insurance...medical, dental, vision, loss of medical, short and long term disability
2 weeks vaction - 5 yrs / 3 weeks 5-10 / 4 weeks 10+
Ext day rates at 150% of daily rate ($780 per day for a 5th yr cap under TA)
50% match on 401k

I truly hope that Flex/Shares/Options get everything we got plus 5%, but it won't happen unless all of the details are out there and guys make it known...these "details" equal over 18k a year in additional compensation over base pay

 

[cosmotheassman]

Bluepost,

The way I'm looking at it, a 5th yr captain at flex makes a base pay of around $72k, not 104k. AND, that's already working 40 days more...

Just curious, since you work at NJ, how you know about the $6k statement that was made???

 

[Grizz]

Cosmo,

Got to tell ya dude, all your proud posting about flex doesn't hold any water once the numbers come out. 40 more work days a year and only making 72K. Hmmmm...

WTF dude? You seem to be pretty sharp on the board. Why profess the company line and rah-rah for a company that obviously wants slave labor? This is a job...nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't define who you are. If a company refuses to treat you and pay you like a professional, then force them to or leave.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Bluepost,

The way I'm looking at it, a 5th yr captain at flex makes a base pay of around $72k, not 104k. AND, that's already working 40 days more...

Just curious, since you work at NJ, how you know about the $6k statement that was made???

Cuz I told him about it... Shameful to post flex secrets I know...

Listen I know who I work for and I know my happiness to should not ever be based on what some other guy is making blah blah blah and other BB propaganda. The facts as I see it is flex, nj, flops, cs etc -- us pilots are all doing the same thing and comparing our benies and incomes should only come as a threat to those in the "vast right wing conspiracy" of screwing us to the wall.

Do I want to make what a nj guy makes -- it all depends on what he has to put up with to get it so maybe not. But I won't ever be able to satisfy that question without all the facts...

And the reson I posted was exactly for this reason -- I wanted to check the spin against the facts. But as I have said all along, $$ don't matter if your QOL sucks. I am still holding out hope flex will come out on top of that one. I'll sacrifice some scratch from flex to get in a little more scratch at home...

 

[cosmotheassman]

Being "shameful" can get you fired for posting company material. You signed a confidential agreement when you signed up on blue belly so, be careful... Just friendly advice bro. And, I think we'll come out on top in the end, if not, we'll be working at home depot selling power tools....

 

[vixin]

Peter,

We should not give up anything!! The NJ rest rules and quality of life are better also. Give us the jack and the life we work so hard for. RH reads this board. We have the Koolaid drinkers that would be happy working 1 less day a bid period for the same money. To them get a life and smell the coffee. That post about us making more is a joke. BB propaganda!!

 

[cosmotheassman]

Do you think that RH hands are tied with this whole deal? I mean, he can only do so much. He might want us to have these great things but, not the pull to do it.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Being "shameful" can get you fired for posting company material. You signed a confidential agreement when you signed up on blue belly so, be careful... Just friendly advice bro. And, I think we'll come out on top in the end, if not, we'll be working at home depot selling power tools....

Hey Cosmo,

Your right -- but I was trying to be a little funny when I said that and don't think I was really giving away any company secrets. Nothing I said isn't already out there in a dozen others places, but I will be more careful and take less poetic license the next time.

Listen, I like our CP and have had to work with every ACP on one issue or another. They are all great guys. And I really do feel that they go to bat for us and care about the issues. I consider them part of the pilot group. They don't want unhappy soldiers. My opinion, as I have stated before, is that the problem comes from higher up and is related to the fact we are regarded as a group as replacable and ordinary.

I know QOL is important to them as well and I know for a fact that at least some of them think there are definitly problems on that issue. The level of acrimony bewteen the pilot group and others is astounding at flex. Maybe it's cuz we are always b*tching about something, but without us they wouldn't have a job so...

 

[cosmotheassman]

Hey, I was just busting your ball$ a little! What do you think will be the substance of the meeting next month?

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Hey, I was just busting your ball$ a little! What do you think will be the substance of the meeting next month?

Hey be nice -- my ball$ are blue-bellied enough thanks to the lovely 6/4 pattern I seem to be stuck in...

I am getting the impression that they will do something, just not anywhere close to what most are hoping for. Management seems to be pretty concerned that matching NJA, let alone exceeding them will leave us in a financially precarious position, so...

I don't discount their fears but IMHO fractionals are pretty low risk business -- most of the expenses are passed on to the owners who will not give up the luxuries our business affords them so hopefully they are considering this. I believe I am paraphrasing Warren Buffet here on why he was so keen to purchase NJA to begin with. As far as flex goes we provide a FAR SUPERIOR experience for our owners and so therefore I think they would be willing to pony up a little more... I'm not being company gung ho -- we a just flat out a better bang for the buck from an owners POV. This coupled with a increased push on our card program might be all we need to match NJA.

I do think what will happen to the fractional industry as a whole is that as costs increase, owners will have to fly 350 or less hours per year (versus the current 400) to make a fractional a good choice otherwise owning outright will be more financially viable. But that stills leaves plenty of room for growth for everyone... And some high volumn owners simply don't want the hassle of fleet managment or see the potential of limitless plane availibilty for the price of a single plane too good to pass up... Listen, I think sometimes a monkey could sell the idea behimd fractionals -- it makes so much sense.

Also, we waste a TON of cash for the benefit of unneccesary flexibility. I think if audited some of our practices we could save a ton of $$. I cannot tell you how many times I have airpassed 1200 mile trips into one airport to sedan to another to be there "just in case" when they could have just waited a couple hours and flown me into the right airport for $300-400. Inceasing gateways might help with this... Also restructuring our catering plans might help -- I know we spend a lot of unneccesary cash there too. I appreciate being fed, but a $30 ham sandwich is overkill. Also, they might considering partnering with some of these big hotel chains -- like 10 hour jet cards to award their top execs in exchange for $50 room rates across the system for on duty flex pilots.

I think we will see at a minimum a decrease in duty days with an equalizing bump to keep salaries at current projections. 1 day or 4 days -- who knows. I think they will also kick in either some additional bankroll to the HSA or reduce premiums -- don't know. I'd love more -- we deserve more but I don't think anything more than that right now... I will have some big decisions to make come Decemeber.... What do you think?

By the way -- what's the skinny on when were were promised to always make more than NJA -- I was not at that meeting and the details I have gotten from others are mixed...

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Also, just an idea specfically for flex, I would like to see is switch to AAdvantage or capital one cards for hotels so we can earn more miles -- my miles are a BIG bonus for me and I know others feel the same way.

It would also be great if they could work out something with AA or change the current booking arrangments to give us the online booking credits and extra miles to match the ticket prices when travel books the tickets.

Also change the FOM to to give us 1 hour of duty after block in when airlining home -- this would make dispatch work harder to get us home at a reasonable time too.

All free (or practically) ways to give us some love...