What the 717 leaving means

[scoreboardII]

Not trying to start another argument just want to know if the SW pilots understand what it means to them for the 717 leaving early.



The SLI we all voted on had approximately 550 AirTran pilots coming across the partition as 717 captains. Now that the 717's will not be coming across those 550 captains will now be 737 FOs.

This means if you are not one of the FOs that captures one of those 550 captain slots you will end up with an additional 550
FOs above you. You're bidding power will be greatly reduced and you could even get pushed out of your base.
The junior captains will do okay at first but then as our senior guys upgrade in 2015 they will continue to be pushed down and kept on reserve.



If we were able to keep those 550 captain slots this would be greatly reduced. Yes those 550 FOs that would have gotten those captain slots would not get as quick of upgrade but the rest of the FOs would not suffer nearly as bad.

The old, let us keep our captain slots so you'll have better seniority as FO lie. Nice try.

 

[freightdogfred]

Why did Southwest buy Airtran?

Page 6 of 15
AirTran Integration
Why did we buy AirTran?
AirTran flew to U.S. destinations that we did not, but wanted to. Those markets were well-served, and with low fares. There was no profitable opportunity to add those cities to Southwest with our own aircraft. And, we are already below our profitability requirement. In several cases, there was no airport or slot access available. After the AirTran acquisition, we have the Continental U.S. virtually covered for 737 service.
AirTran was for sale at a price that was extremely attractive. Essentially, we bought 140 airplanes, 25 new cities, and a business that was profitable. AirTran is already more profitable under Southwest. And, it will be more profitable, still, once it is completely integrated into Southwest. Without AirTran, we could not have achieved all-time second quarter record profits.
AirTran has a valuable, profitable international presence and gives us a running start into our own international expansion, which cannot start for two more years.
AirTran is a high-quality, low-cost airline with outstanding People who know the importance of hard work and perseverance.
AirTran will boost our combined profits by at least $400 million a year; rapidly expand our domestic route network; instantly establish us in near-international markets; and position us for significant route network growth opportunities.
Finally, integrating AirTran will lower our unit cost.
Said a different way, there is no way we would be prepared to do international, expand our domestic U.S. footprint, and operate near 700 aircraft in a decade, maybe even two. AirTran propels us forward, and at a speed we can manage, with better profitability. It is a huge win.

Quoted from GK's mid year update

 

[Ty Webb]

AT ALPA MEC totally dropped the ball by not allowing sl9 to go out for mbrship vote...The 717 going away sooner than later does not change this fact...the AAI side gambled away the base/seat/pay protections for more seniority... Which they got...

I really have to laugh when I see SWA guys trying to tell us what we should or shouldn't have done.

Maybe you should be mad at Steve Chase for selling you on the idea that your FO's shoulder all of the pain. . . . . Did you ever think of that?

Seems to me like you have enough to deal with on your side of the partition, without telling us what to do on ours.

 

[GIZMONC]

Rumor around campus that MKE and MCO AT pilot base is closing ? Anyone able to confirm. Also and how soon?

 

[27 driver]

Latest email from Russel Mccrady states that MCO 717 flying is strong through 2013. I don't believe much of what we are told these days. Also says they will comply with our bid. Looks like people who bid off the 73 to the 717 will now go to the 717 even if it is short lived. It would seem that the training dept will be busy for a while.

 

[Lear70]

Rumor around campus that MKE and MCO AT pilot base is closing ? Anyone able to confirm. Also and how soon?

I posted that on another thread.

We've known for quite some time that MKE and MCO were closing first, MKE is almost completely shut down anyway, and the only question there was what to do with the pilots who were awarded SWA 717. There was no provision for them to go to SWA out of seniority from the flush bid.

MKE will therefore be completely shut down as of April next year, about 6 months away.

The MCO base drawdown was ORIGINALLY planned for 7 people in March, the rest in September. It has now been changed for 8 people in January, and the rest will be drawn down whenever SWA can completely take over the SJU flying and incorporate it into their flight schedule.

SJU stays high load factor pretty much year-round and SWA wants the station ASAP. It also gives your crews your first taste of overwater flying and training without the extended overwater piece of the puzzle being required. I wouldn't be shocked at all to find the few remaining Classics down in SJU in about 5-7 years doing inter-island hopping between SJU and neighboring islands like JB does with the Embraer, along with some other stuff that will utilize the -800's nicely out of SJU, possibly even a SJU base someday.

Without the SJU flying the MCO base only has about 3 737 EMO's per day, the early flights to places SWA doesn't serve non-stop out of MCO like ATL. Therefore MCO will cease to be a 737 base when the last of the crews transition sometime between Jul-Sep.

The 717 part of the op will still have a MCO base well towards the end of next year. Rumor is they want the base completely shut down in MCO including the 717's by the end of 2013 or 1st quarter 2014, but that's just rumor at this point.

They're not transitioning very many people next year, in truth only about 180 give or take by June. If that stays constant by Dec 2013, not even half of our pilots will have transitioned in 2 years, with only 1 year left to get the remaining 700-800 active pilots across. As I said in the other thread, we can only hope they start jamming the 717 guys at the same rate the airplanes are assigned to Delta.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Wrong. A transition to SW 717 CA/FO is the awarded bid from the SLI. That bid is no longer exists...ie a displacment. Just wait until all those RSW FOs get to commute to OAK/LAS again. :bawling:

SC may have hooked up the senior FOs but he royally screwed the junior ones!

Phred

Hey, thanks for pointing out that it's Steve Chase that's running the company and making the decisions. Next time I see him, I'll have to ask him why he decided to sub-lease all those 717s...

You know, I'm not a huge Steve Chase fan, but this was not his doing. He didn't buy Airtran, and HE didn't subsequently arrange to dispose of 2/3 of their aircraft. He didn't even come up with the SLI agreement that everyone hates. All he's doing (that I can see) is trying to make the company live up to its obligations, and keep the pilots that HE represents from being screwed any worse. Isn't it Airtran ALPA's job to keep THEIR pilots from being screwed any worse?

I dunno... let's ask General Lee what it all means--he seems to have all the answers.

Bubba

 

[madjack]

Ty,

Just stating a fact...AT MEC denied the mbrship a chance to vote on SL9, which contained more protections (granted less seniority) than the approved SL10. That was a blunder that has cost AAI pilots millions of dollars...it is easy to blame SWAPA/SC and even SWA for the uncertainty created by the 717 going away...but a claim of damages by AAI pilots and seeking displacement rights at the expense of SWA pilots when SL9 protections would have made the current situation moot is just not right...you gambled for seniority and won, but in the long run you lost when the company decided to lease the 717....lay the blame where it belongs...on your MEC and mgmt's decision to purchase your airline (and divest the 717). Don't take it out on the SWA pilots...

 

[General Lee]

Hey, thanks for pointing out that it's Steve Chase that's running the company and making the decisions. Next time I see him, I'll have to ask him why he decided to sub-lease all those 717s...

You know, I'm not a huge Steve Chase fan, but this was not his doing. He didn't buy Airtran, and HE didn't subsequently arrange to dispose of 2/3 of their aircraft. He didn't even come up with the SLI agreement that everyone hates. All he's doing (that I can see) is trying to make the company live up to its obligations, and keep the pilots that HE represents from being screwed any worse. Isn't it Airtran ALPA's job to keep THEIR pilots from being screwed any worse?

I dunno... let's ask General Lee what it all means--he seems to have all the answers.

Bubba

Thanks Bubba for giving credit where credit is due. I just wanna ask, didn't GK say SWA was keeping the 717s originally? But then I hear people saying they knew "all along" that the 717s were leaving. Which was it? If they knew all along that the 717s were going away, why was there a bid for the AT 737 guys to bid back to 717 Captain? That would seem strange to me, IMO...... Have a great Corndog day! (in five States)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Thanks Bubba for giving credit where credit is due. I just wanna ask, didn't GK say SWA was keeping the 717s originally? But then I hear people saying they knew "all along" that the 717s were leaving. Which was it? If they knew all along that the 717s were going away, why was there a bid for the AT 737 guys to bid back to 717 Captain? That doesn't seem right, IMO...... Have a great Corndog day! (in five States)


Bye Bye---General Lee

To actually give you an answer without flaming,... there's no black and white in your question. GK never said he was "definitely keeping" the 717s, and nobody "knew all along" that they were leaving. People seem to have heard what they wanted to hear. GK said different things at different times, including that they were "fine planes," that he was "looking for ways to divest them," that they "could be used for smaller cities," and (later) that they're not as cost effective in a higher fuel market. The ultimate truth was that if he could find a way to get rid of them that he believed would help the bottom line, then he would. If he didn't or couldn't, then they'd stay, and we'd use them to make money under SWA colors. Obviously, he believed the deal to sublease them to Delta would ultimately help Southhwest's future profits more than keeping them. That is always the bottom line for a company.

To answer your other question, the flush bid included 717 positions (and the ultimate 717 domicile in TPA) to account for the case if he could not or did not find a suitable way to dispose of the planes in such a way as to enhance the company's finances. I assume there was probably a 50-50 or so chance that they would stay when the integration deal was inked.

Was this a good decision? Depends on who you ask. I assume GK feels yes. The majority of Airtran pilots feel no. A lot of SWA pilots feel yes, and a bunch more are ambivalent or feel no as well. I'm personally not too crazy about it for several reasons: it pisses off people (our Airtran brothers) even more, it's fewer known airframes to capitalize on opportunities that may pop up, there's more uncertainty and possible delay with the integration, etc. Obviously, I'm not privvy to the financial projections that GK used to come to his decision, so I have to assume he "knows" this will ultimately be better for the company. One thing's for sure--GK doesn't seem to consider pilots' happiness when weighing business decisions. On the other hand, that seems to be the only criterion that pilots have when bitching on Flight Info.

I'm sure you actually know all this, but just want to keep poking at the situation, because that's what you do. But there it is for you,... again. Have a great Delta day (in your mind)!

Bubba

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

.but a claim of damages by AAI pilots and seeking displacement rights at the expense of SWA pilots when SL9 protections would have made the current situation moot is just not right.....

That is incorrect. Again, when you try to talk knowledgeably about this, you just end up sounding foolish. Give it a rest.

 

[madjack]

Ty,

10 year base/seat protection in an ATL base! SWA pay rates effective on ratification!!...during the run up to SL9 vote, you were one of the most vocal critics on this forum...often using condescending retorts as argument (example above)...your are revising history to your view point...ratification of SL9 would have made it very expensive for SWA to divest the 717...SL10 (which was voted in by a 85% majority) gave AAI more seniority at the expense of base/seat and pay protections...fact not snide retort...

Rumor has it that VdV advised GK that SWA could not afford SL9 (snap up pay immediately for AAI pilots), when the MEC voted it down it was not just the SWA pilots that were relieved...

ALL SWA pilots will feel the pain of the 717 going away...as former AAI pilots become SWA pilots by 01JAN2015, with out bringing airframes, line totals will be diluted as they are now on the AAI side...

Ironically, the decision of the AAI MEC to shoot down SL9, saved the company millions that will be paid by the AAI and SWA pilots for years to come...thanks ALPA for one of the greatest blunders in negotiating ever!

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I think the whole premis of this thread is flawed. The original poster assumes that the 717 airframes will be replaced on a one for one basis. Gary has stated that he has no intention of growing capacity. He and Wall Street see capacity in ASMs not airframes. Looking at capacity in terms of ASMs a 137 seat 737-300 replaces 1.17 717s, a 143 seat -700 replaces 1.22 717s, and a 175 seat -800 replaces 1.5 717s. So all 88 717s ASMs could be replaced by between 59 and 75 737s if those 717s were flying at full utilization. That is a loss of 13-29 airframes and all the pilot seats that go with them. That being said if you look at the current 717 flying or lack there of it is obvious that the 717 airframes are not currently being flown anywhere close to full utilization which means it takes even fewer replacement airframes to produce the same ASMs. In this environment with management chasing 15 percent ROIC I think that almost none of those airframes will be replaced which means that there will be no captain seats to argue about and we will be grossly overstaffed. I'm much more concerned about how this overstaffing is dealt with both prior to and after the transition than I am about anything else.

 

[FL250]

Cry me a river......

 

[madjack]

That is a loss of 13-29 airframes and all the pilot seats that go with them.

Or 2-4 years of pilot retirements...GL may be right about stagnation at SWA vs DAL when the retirements kick in...especially with DAL getting 88 717s