What Others Think of the DAL MEC

[~~~^~~~]

Fins your a level headed guy I can tell. I guess all I can say here how do you know we took the easy way out? You sure it wasn't your guys.

So who has caused more harm to the combined pilot group?

What I mean to say is that your MEC's unanamous "no" decision was easier than facing the fact that things are going to change and making the most of it.

It is easy to sit back and be against everything. It is more difficult to lead. There is no doubt the DAL MEC lead the way, getting management to the table and preparing integration models.

It is too early to say what the effect of the NWA's Reps intransigence is going to be. From here it looks like they have harmed their pilots and helped the Delta pilots.

To explain: Delta is supposed to start hiring this fall and even if they would prefer to wait, they can't, with the airplanes coming that need drivers. LOA 19 provides the Delta pilots with furlough protection. To me, it appears that these events will help the Delta pilots in a relative seniority result.

The plan was never to isolate the NWA pilots while the fleet was rationalized, but it looks like that is a possibility.

If there was a time for "peak leverage" that time has probably come and gone. Even the Delta pilots accepted less than what was on the table previously. It is more difficult to negotiate in a time of declining realities after expectations are set much higher. The job of both MEC's get harder as time goes on....

Everyone knows the NWA MEC can be effective in harming the Company and us. No one wants that to happen. The strong preference is for a joint agreement with co workers that are happy to fly for Delta.

Just my nobody opinion.... :cartman:

I do not like the way things are going because the DAL MEC will likely take the blame/credit politically for something they actually tried to prevent.

 

[GogglesPisano]

It is easy to sit back and be against everything. It is more difficult to lead. .

Amen, brother. :beer:

 

[737 Pylt]

Dalpa has been boning CMR for years. They were just waiting for the BIG FISH! That's why we slapped the RJDC on them. I guess ALPA will stand back and watch as usual..

Wow sporto.....Soooo, just where did you spend all that $$ won in that lawsuit??:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[Fly4hire]

I do not like the way things are going because the DAL MEC will likely take the blame/credit politically for something they actually tried to prevent.

I keep hearing how DAL tried to "help" the NWA pilots and how we kept being so stubborn, uncooperative, etc.

The fact is neither side has made public what the actual final proposals were and how it would have numerically affected pilots at various levels at day one, and in subsequent out years.

My Reps have told me the claims of stapling 3000 DAL pilots is utter nonsense, and that the relative seniority of NW pilot suffered intolerably within 5 yrs.

Your Reps claim you were being fair and equitable and the NW pilots belligerent, and wanting far more than we brought to the table.

I propose that until we see the final positions of both parties laid out for us both to evaluate we (myself at the top of the list) give it a rest.

I'm not conceding who is right or wrong, but that simply we don't have enough factual data to make a case either way.

I sincerely hope that both sides lay the entire proposals out publicly to the pilots of both groups so we can make an objective decision.

Despite the hyperbole and considerable pride and ego of both pilot groups there has to be enough common ground where we can find an agreement workable for everyone.

(To the usual suspects, please spare the "if your side had only done x, y, or z, or agreed with our fair offer")

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I have yet to meet a union rep that doesn't say a bunch of things to support his own cause, even if it is embelished or misrepresented...then when called on something he backs down and changes his tune.

I would be suspicious of both MEC's.

 

[jkkdca]

Fly4hire, how many times do we have to say relative seniority +-1-2% for you to understand it. That was our proposal. You still haven't told us what yours was or what you think is fair. Go ahead.

 

[Kroll]

So, if someone has a weaker case, and knows it, they shouldn't negotiate so there could be a chance to abritrate it and MAYBE win anyway? They kept the pension, had a lot of older planes, worse bases, and would get a pay raise along with losing their boss that hates them. Hmmmmmm. I guess that is NOT good enough. Let's roll the dice and hopefully win something with someone who really doesn't care, and if we lose we can blame it on them!! A win win.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well I don't have a pension. I like MSP (yes it is colder than a well-diggers a$$) and lived in Ann Arbor for about 6 years. Your argument of a weaker postion based on domicle, pension, wide body verses narrow is weak. I think it is safe to say there are things that suck on both sides. Don't you guys have APU nazis? That kinda blows. You have to wear a huge radar on your head all day. That blows. Doesn't ATL have cockroches everywhere? Look you want it to be fair and so do I. Both of us don't have all the facts.

 

[Kroll]

What I mean to say is that your MEC's unanamous "no" decision was easier than facing the fact that things are going to change and making the most of it.

It is easy to sit back and be against everything. It is more difficult to lead. There is no doubt the DAL MEC lead the way, getting management to the table and preparing integration models.

It is too early to say what the effect of the NWA's Reps intransigence is going to be. From here it looks like they have harmed their pilots and helped the Delta pilots.

To explain: Delta is supposed to start hiring this fall and even if they would prefer to wait, they can't, with the airplanes coming that need drivers. LOA 19 provides the Delta pilots with furlough protection. To me, it appears that these events will help the Delta pilots in a relative seniority result.

The plan was never to isolate the NWA pilots while the fleet was rationalized, but it looks like that is a possibility.

If there was a time for "peak leverage" that time has probably come and gone. Even the Delta pilots accepted less than what was on the table previously. It is more difficult to negotiate in a time of declining realities after expectations are set much higher. The job of both MEC's get harder as time goes on....

Everyone knows the NWA MEC can be effective in harming the Company and us. No one wants that to happen. The strong preference is for a joint agreement with co workers that are happy to fly for Delta.

Just my nobody opinion.... :cartman:

I do not like the way things are going because the DAL MEC will likely take the blame/credit politically for something they actually tried to prevent.

Fins nice post. I can't say that I have enough info to know who said what, who lead or who didn't. Dalpa going to mngmt doesn't tell me their leading it appears they're running. I think there is BS on both sides. I'm not sure why I waste my time with this dribble. This is where we are now and we both need to come together and right this ship.

 

[NuGuy]

Fly4hire, how many times do we have to say relative seniority +-1-2% for you to understand it. That was our proposal. You still haven't told us what yours was or what you think is fair. Go ahead.

Because there is absolutely NO proof to back up your claim other than "well, we told you that's what it is" in the face of our reps telling us that was NO where near what the final DAL offer was.

Until it is in print from your MEC, it's luncheon meat.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Well I don't have a pension. I like MSP (yes it is colder than a well-diggers a$$) and lived in Ann Arbor for about 6 years. Your argument of a weaker postion based on domicle, pension, wide body verses narrow is weak. I think it is safe to say there are things that suck on both sides. Don't you guys have APU nazis? That kinda blows. You have to wear a huge radar on your head all day. That blows. Doesn't ATL have cockroches everywhere? Look you want it to be fair and so do I. Both of us don't have all the facts.

APU Nazis? We have people that would rather us not use them all of the time, but if the Captain wants to use it, he/she is allowed. And I think the uniform looks good. If you don't want to stand out in the crowd, well, blend in with it. And, I haven't seen that many cockroaches. There are probably just as many in MEM as there are in ATL. We don't have gophers and huge misquitos as big as choppers like you do up North.

My argument is spot on about how much you would get vs what we get in this merger. You gain a heck of a lot more, and most of your senior guys keep their pensions. Ours do not. Yes, we got some compensation, but not even close to the amount your guys will get, and you will get our better work rules as a bonus, along with a pay bump and chance to fly closer to where a lot of you live. The ability to fly a widebody for even more pay is better after we merge---there are so many good things in it for you, and for us---well, we might be able to see Asia SOONER than we would when we get 777s that would have gone there anyway. Did you know we are getting 20 more 777LRs? Where do you think they will go? Also, you have to remember that we did lose a bunch of guys to early outs, but as that happened we PARKED PLANES. We parked MD11s, 767-200s, and all of our 737-200s and 737-300s. Does that sound like everyone jumped forward and gained huge sums of money? What would have happened had your guys left for their pensions, and at the same time you parked all DC9s and 742s? Not much movement, eh? Sounds familiar.

So, I am just saying you guys had a great offer on the table, and your apparent inflexibility over seniority integration---something which could balance out the gains for each group--yours gaining more in pay, rules, base choices, keeping a pension that we don't have, etc.---has lead you to this point. You need to see that to be fair, you need to give a bit to equalize the gains for each group.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

This is where we are now and we both need to come together and right this ship.

Agreed & I think our Reps are working on it.

 

[N2264J]

Re: What Others Think of the Delta MEC

Residual internal strife, the product of an arbitrated award. AAA/AWA also have strife, the product of an arbitrated award. Yet we Delta pilots have integrated PAA pilots and Western pilots without that internal strife. The product of a negotiated awards.

The Comair pilots received an Email from a Pan Am/Delta captain during our push for the PID in 2000. Remember, that acquisition led to ALPA's crown jewel of real estate, 1625 Mass. (two blocks from the Capitol building in Washington DC), being sold to pay for the DFR settlement.
____________________


Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 5:31 PM
Subject: one alpa


Gentlemen:

Great Web Site!

I share your frustration.

After reading what you are attempting to do, I thought you might like to hear a little history of the most recent acquisition and seniority list integration.

I am one of the Pan Am pilots who was "acquired" (Delta term) in 1991. I write this email to you as a warning about what can happen in your quest for a combined list. Do not trust Delta. Do not trust ALPA. We call one another brothers at ALPA until it is a choice between you or a mainline Delta pilot...then there is no choice. You will be sold out by ALPA or used by ALPA for the benefit of the Delta mainline pilots. I speak from experience.

In 1991 we (Pan Am) pilots were told by Delta management (Sr VP Flt Opns Captain Harry Alger and Captain Dave Greenberg) that we would be integrated into the seniority list in a "fair and equitable manner". This was Delta's terminology. Alger and Greenberg asked Captain Sheldon, Delta ALPA MEC Chairman to put together a merged seniority list. A committee was formed to investigate the two pilot groups and form a proposed seniority list. At this point I should point out that just one month before this exercise began, when the PanAm acquisition was a done deal, the ALPA executive committee voted to remove language in ALPA's merger policy stating mergers should be accomplished in date of hire! Captain Sheldon was a member of this committee. [N2264J note: The Delta MEC had a member who sat on the Board of Directors and would know months in advance if Delta were planning an acquisition then maneuver to change ALPA merger policy before hand. That happened again at the ALPA BOD in 1998, just a four months before Delta announced the purchased ASA.] The merger committee did it's job and formed a proposed seniority list. The list ratio'd Pan Am pilots into the Delta seniority list which resulted in a loss of seniority of approximately 10 years in the worst case. This seniority list was to be presented to Delta Flight Ops management at the next MEC meeting.

The next MEC meeting was attended by Dave Greenberg and Harry Alger. The proposed seniority list was presented to Alger/Greenberg who did not even look at it. Instead, they threw on the table what they termed the "company list". When the MEC looked at this list Alger/Greenberg presented, they were amazed. The worse case loss of seniority to a Pan Am pilot was over 23 years! Immediately, they recognized Delta wanted this list and would negotiate to get it. When asked what Delta ALPA would get should it accepted this list, Alger/Greenberg responded by offering agency shop agreement and a 2% pay increase. Sheldon and his MEC bought it! It is interesting to note that Delta Flight Ops management stated in prior years that there would never be an agency shop agreement at Delta. Many Western pilots dropped out of ALPA after their merger with Delta because of the seniority list integration. The Delta MEC had to assume the Pan Am pilots would also be upset with the integration. The combination of the two groups and the other non-members represented millions of dollars. The Delta offer solved a major economic and control problem of the Delta MEC. Thus, the Pan Am pilots were sold out for a 2% pay increase and agency shop by our "brothers in ALPA". So much for brotherhood between two ALPA represented major airlines.

The Delta "company list" started integrating the Pan Am pilots into the combined list at approximately the senior man on the 767. Their rational was that we were bringing over aircraft that were similar to the 767 so this is where we should start appearing on the list. If one accepts this rational for integration, then it would also be fair to come up from the bottom to the most junior man on the 727 and integrate all Pan Am airmen into the list between the most senior 767 airman and the most junior 727 airman, since we did not bring any airplane over smaller than a 727 - (Delta had DC-9's). Not so. A ratio was established at 1:11 starting at the 767 senior captain until reaching to co-pilots where it reverted to 1:13 until all airman were inserted into the list. But guess what? Delta ran out of Delta pilots. So what Delta flight operations management did is insert 13 X's into the list after the last Delta pilot then a Pan Am pilot, another 13 X's - a Pan Am pilot until finally all Pan Am pilots were accounted for as follows:
Last Delta Pilot
Pan Am Pilot
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
Pan Am Pilot
x
x
and so on....

As Delta hired new pilots off the street, they replaced each X on the seniority list with that pilot...inserting them senior to the Pan Am pilots. In other words, Pan Am pilots were inserted JUNIOR to pilots who had not even been hired by Delta as of the date of integration. This is what our great and wonderful Delta family calls "fair and equitable".

Perhaps you can now understand why a group of approximately 485 Pan Am pilots formed an organization called PANDA and filed an age discrimination lawsuit in federal court against Delta Air Lines. We have won 3 out of four motions to dismiss the lawsuit. We are awaiting a decision on the last motion...we firmly believe we shall win. If we win this last motion, the case will be tried before a jury in Manhattan. We are asking for date-of-hire, back pay for what we should have been paid vs. what we were paid, retirement medical benefits, and credit for retirement. It is interesting to note, just two weeks before the Pan Am pilots were brought over, Delta management made a decision not to offer any Delta employee retirement medical benefits unless that employee had 10 years service with Delta. Delta management well knew that the majority of the Pan Am pilots were past 50 at the time of acquisition. When the Pan Am pilots retired, they were forced to pay exorbitant medical premiums. ALPA negotiated medical retirement benefits for all pilots in the '96 contract.

Someone said "history repeats itself". Hope this might help your group.

Fraternally,
Name deleted by N2264J
Captain

 

[Fly4hire]

Fly4hire, how many times do we have to say relative seniority +-1-2% for you to understand it. That was our proposal. You still haven't told us what yours was or what you think is fair. Go ahead.

How many times do you have to be told that relative seniority is also a relative thing? Relative to how you categorize this or that aircraft, relative on day one, year 3, 5, 10 etc.

Stop trying to paint it as black and white - it's far more complex than that or we would have had an agreement by now.

Again, lets wait until we have the whole picture - I'll venture neither you nor I have it.

 

[Kroll]

APU Nazis? We have people that would rather us not use them all of the time, but if the Captain wants to use it, he/she is allowed. And I think the uniform looks good. If you don't want to stand out in the crowd, well, blend in with it. And, I haven't seen that many cockroaches. There are probably just as many in MEM as there are in ATL. We don't have gophers and huge misquitos as big as choppers like you do up North.

I actually live in Chicago " The greatset city in the world" in my opinion. ha, ha. I do think your uniforms are fine. I was just busting your chops about the hats a bit I would personally rather blend in with the background.

My argument is spot on about how much you would get vs what we get in this merger.
Wouldn't this all be a matter of opinion? I agree it would be better for all of us. Lets hope when were done with this it will be.


You gain a heck of a lot more, and most of your senior guys keep their pensions.

Keep in mind many of us have no pension........I'm in that crowd.

Ours do not. Yes, we got some compensation, but not even close to the amount your guys will get,

I will try to express what I think but I don't think it will come across right. So here goes. I kinda veiw this like we are one team now and if we were higher than you'd get a bigger bump. We are fighting for one pilot group not 2 separate groups. To me the pay is irrevelant just as long all pilots are all equal in the end. Someone was going to be higher. Both of our separate contracts have good things take the good leave the bad. To me all that really matters is the SLI and this needs to be fair. So strip all the good things in our contract away and just look at the things that really affect a persons senority. The amount of money I make does not affect my movement according to seniority. Spare yourselves the time in writing how I am wrong for this reason or that. This is just my opinion. I'm not figuring this deal out. I'm just along for the ride.

and you will get our better work rules as a bonus, along with a pay bump and chance to fly closer to where a lot of you live. The ability to fly a widebody for even more pay is better after we merge---there are so many good things in it for you, and for us---well, we might be able to see Asia SOONER than we would when we get 777s that would have gone there anyway. Did you know we are getting 20 more 777LRs? Where do you think they will go? Also, you have to remember that we did lose a bunch of guys to early outs, but as that happened we PARKED PLANES. We parked MD11s, 767-200s, and all of our 737-200s and 737-300s. Does that sound like everyone jumped forward and gained huge sums of money? What would have happened had your guys left for their pensions,

I would have jumped for joy

and at the same time you parked all DC9s and 742s? Not much movement, eh? Sounds familiar.


We currently still have guys throwing in the towel every month. However, I feel most are waiting to grab their claim checks then bail. Only time will tell what many really do. It does not pay for these guys to stay past 60 if they have their full pensions. So I believe they are balencing what they lose in their pensions vrs the claim check they could get. Their are some that want to fly this plane (787) or that.

So, I am just saying you guys had a great offer on the table, and your apparent inflexibility over seniority integration

I can't respond to this. I don't know if our guys were inflexable or if it were yours. Do you really know 100% ? I think both sides were.

---something which could balance out the gains for each group--yours gaining more in pay, rules, base choices, keeping a pension that we don't have, etc.---has lead you to this point. You need to see that to be fair, you need to give a bit to equalize the gains for each group.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General good responses. Time will tell what it will take to get turd into the air between the two groups. Its time to get off this board or my wife will drop the hammer

 

[whymeworry?]

Indeed it is tough to take sides on this issue but in the end I have to side with NWA. Regardless of what occurred at the table during the November thru Feb '08 time frame, it was all negotiating semantics up until that point. When DALPA sided with mgmt this week, they sent a clear message to unionists everywhere: "we will roll over you." I know the NWA pilots walked away from a good deal in Feb (relative to the sht-sandwhich they're being handed now) but did it really warrant this type of behavior from DAL?

I think DAL feels it got the upper hand for the moment. But in the end the pilots of NWA will burn the house down which will help nobody. Plus, lets call a spade for what it is. The pilots of DAL are being asked to sign a shtty 4-year contract with a 5% raise and that doesn't even kick-in until next year. Further, the 3.5% equity stake will probably be next-to-worthless when the vesting/ restriction period is up. How does that even keep up with inflation? The point is, this deal is a joke even for the DAL pilots, so what have you guys really gained here? DAL pilots should have locked arms with NWA crew and demanded more from mgmt.

So based on my aforementioned comments, IMO it would be in DAL pilots best interest to vote down the present contract offer. You accomplish two objectives that way:

1) You hopefully get your point across to NWA pilots that they will have to think more fairly at the bargining table (which I acknowledge they clearly haven't thus far. and this has gotten them to where they are today)

2) Even if the merger progresses, you can then join arms with the pilots of NWA and demand more from your mgmt or else. At a minimum the contract offer on the table should include larger equity stake or a shorter contract term... or both.

 

[FDJ2]

Remember, that acquisition led to ALPA's crown jewel of real estate, 1625 Mass. (two blocks from the Capitol building in Washington DC), being sold to pay for the DFR settlement.

That DFR settlement had nothing to do with seniority list integration. Next.

 

[FDJ2]

The pilots of DAL are being asked to sign a shtty 4-year contract with a 5% raise and that doesn't even kick-in until next year.

It's a letter of agreement, not a joint contract. It contains much more than just a 5% pay raise.

The pay increase doesn't kick in until the deal closes, because if it doesn't close, the LOA disapears.

Further, the 3.5% equity stake will probably be next-to-worthless when the vesting/ restriction period is up.

Yeah right. That's what they said about our claim. I think you should read some of the fine print on that equity.

How does that even keep up with inflation?

How do the current rates keep up with inflation?

The point is, this deal is a joke even for the DAL pilots, so what have you guys really gained here?

If it's a joke, then why are so many wanting the same deal?

DAL pilots should have locked arms with NWA crew and demanded more from mgmt.

The DAL pilots informed the NWA pilots of the negotiations, which had a 2 week timeline for completion, but a certain MEC Chairman took a vacation and so did a certain MEC negotiator.

The DAL pilots were not going to allow opportunity slip them by because a certain MEC doesn't believe in timelines.

 

[nwaredtail]

The pilots of DAL are being asked to sign a shtty 4-year contract with a 5% raise and that doesn't even kick-in until next year.

It's a letter of agreement, not a joint contract. It contains much more than just a 5% pay raise.

The pay increase doesn't kick in until the deal closes, because if it doesn't close, the LOA disapears.

Further, the 3.5% equity stake will probably be next-to-worthless when the vesting/ restriction period is up.

Yeah right. That's what they said about our claim. I think you should read some of the fine print on that equity.

How does that even keep up with inflation?

How do the current rates keep up with inflation?

The point is, this deal is a joke even for the DAL pilots, so what have you guys really gained here?

If it's a joke, then why are so many wanting the same deal?

DAL pilots should have locked arms with NWA crew and demanded more from mgmt.

The DAL pilots informed the NWA pilots of the negotiations, which had a 2 week timeline for completion, but a certain MEC Chairman took a vacation and so did a certain MEC negotiator.

The DAL pilots were not going to allow opportunity slip them by because a certain MEC doesn't believe in timelines.

I love it. The US economy is just now starting to show what a deep RECESSION we are entering and these guys actually think they will get raises, etc. I remember Richard Anderson giving us raises of about 10.5% or so when everyone else were frozen or starting pay cuts. Guess what, we gave it all back, PLUS. Yeah, thats right , Richard Anderson.

NWA is better on our own, but, if we are going to merge, DALPA better get of it's high horse and start to realize that the NWA pilots can and will wipe out any economic gain, in spite of itself.

Spare me the rhetoric about vacations, merger committee's etc. Anderson bought you off, rather easily I might add. Simple, simple people.

A pay raise, GMAB

 

[PCL_128]

That DFR settlement had nothing to do with seniority list integration. Next.

Don't bother the RJDC wankers with facts. They've never worried about them before.

 

[Draginass]

No furlough clause? . . . . . yea right. Not worth the paper it's printed on.

I love all the sunshine that Anderson is blowing up everyone's butt. In 9 months when the economy is in the dumper you can bet King Richard will be back saying "yea, but . . . .things have changed." In the meantime, all the bonus money will have been dispersed to the senior execs and gone gone gone. He'll starting parking 9's wholesale and a lot of "junior" people are going to get it in the neck.