What Others Think of the DAL MEC

[Truckdriver]

As to the "do no harm to NWA TA" upping to 255 70 seater's does no harm? (Again DAL set the bar lower for Scope)

The scope in the TA simply took the 70 seaters that DAL was allowed to fly under the current PWA and added that number to what NWA is currently allowed to fly. We also had to relax the weight limit a little to allow the use of the E-175's at Compass that NWA allowed to be operated. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but we didn't allow any additional 70 seaters to be added to the combined airline we just added up the DAL and NWA 70 seaters and relaxed the weight limit for the 175's. I personally think we should have an agreement that said any additional 70-76 seaters come to the combined airline to be flown by mainline pilots. That is really the only furlough protection that will work here. We all know the 9's and some of the 88's will be replaced by CRJ 900's and E 175's. Maybe we can get that in the joint contract.

 

[jkkdca]

Also, I DID take your 757's into account. I took the numbers from APC. I think Lee Moak wants to now go to arbitration because this needs to get concluded. He tried the right way, now we have to do it the way in which your negotiaters can say they had nothing to do with it. Lee was told by them that they are afraid of all the bag stickers the NWA guys would put on there bags if they gave them something the membership didn't like. This is who you have working for you. Guys afraid of stickers instead of trying to create an airline.

 

[Kroll]

Then learn them before you pontificate.

Where did I pontificate? Please refrain adding your own negative tone to my post. Its not meant to be negative. Its a question. Man you guys are touchy. This is what we have heard. Are you say that its not in there? If you know then let us all know. What was given up or added? So tell us since you know. Not hearsay.

 

[Kroll]

I think people that ask this question need to step back and take a look at the big picture. I don't care who was hired before Sept 11th and who was hired after Sept 11th. It doesn't matter. PERIOD.

Why doesn't it matter? Because Sept 11th affected everyone, not just those who were furloughed, but it also affected those people who were hoping to get hired prior to Sept 11th. So, what if you were someone who had to put off your dream job for 5+ years because no one was hiring? How are you going to factor that into seniority integration? The answer is you can't.

Those people who were furloughed after Sept 11th, I feel sorry for you and it sux that it happened. However, your furlough is the fault of your management's business plan and events that no one can control. Does this mean because of that, pilots at another company that have been hiring a lot more new hires should be penalized for what happened to you? No.

Who should you take your anger and frustration out on? Your company. Demand retribution from them. And if your merging currently, demand retribution from the new company through wages and QOL enhancements.

If a newhire at company X is say 90% seniority in his/her company, and a ex-furlough-ee is 90% in their company (even if they have been on their list for 7 years), how is it fair to staple the 90% guy newhire to the new integrated list? After you put the newhires behind your "Sept 11th furloughees" , now that guy/girl is potentially at 80%. Wow, good for that person, they just got paid back for their furlough status by taking it out on a fellow pilot. Botom line is it isn't fair.

This kind of BS thinking that a furloughee has already put in his "dues" or something like that is the same reason newhires have to put up with a BS first year payscale. No one should have to put up with welfare level wages just because you are a newhire.

So, another question. Lets say CAL does merge with UA. CAL has 2.5 year Captains (newhires after Sept 11th). UA's youngest Capt is ~ 10 years. So if they merge, do all the new guys at CAL since Sept 11th get stapled as well and lose their Capt in the new company? No, of course not.

Good luck to everyone, but if you think your gonna get preferential treatment on a seniority list because you were furloughed after 9/11 you've got another thing coming.

RANT OFF.

I disagree veiw period. Why did you go into a rant? It was meant to be a calmly asked question. Nothing more. You've stated your point and it has some merit in areas but I disagree with it. Have you been furloughed? I doubt it because of your posted time.

I don't expect much but I don't feel that I should be junior to someone hired a month ago.

 

[Kroll]

Fly4hire:

Do you understand that "expedited arbitration" and "arbitration" are two different things?

Kroll:

Candidly, I have more research to do before taking a position for, or against, LOA19. Those who negotiated it are far ahead of me right now.

I think the ratio,RJ to mainline may have preserved the inferior Delta language and if that is the case, I do not like that part when you consider the economic realities of the DC9.

Also, if LOA 19 was a scope sale then it harms the junior members of the list the most. Weighting the equity payout to the more senior pilots is not equitable.

Does anyone know if NWA's Jets for Jobs provisions were retained? In any event, we need that flying one one list.

I've got a lot of studying to do before completely understanding the effects of LOA19. I hope the NWA pilots get on board and we negotiate something together than eclipses LOA19.

P.S. The credit markets want blood. They want parked airplanes and an old fashioned merger that removes a bunch of capacity. To the extent that the market is not impressed with the ideas hedge funds have for running an airline, ot would not surprised me if this merger began to unravel.

Thankyou for your calm answer. Sounds like we are all tryng to figure things out. We just hear a different tail over here and are tryng to sort through this mess and move on.

 

[Kroll]

That tells you nothing other than they all took the easy way out, to the detriment of their pilots, rather than step up the plate to participate.

Fins your a level headed guy I can tell. I guess all I can say here how do you know we took the easy way out? You sure it wasn't your guys. From my understanding we got to a point where no-one would move. Then arbitrate. Isn't that what we ask for? So who step away from the binding arbitration.

Now we have lost that old contract and we are back to arbitration. DALPA MEC appears to have divided the two side because of siding with mngmt. So who has caused more harm to the combined pilot group?

 

[tomgoodman]

Winds of change

I suggest that, before bashing either MEC, we acknowledge that neither one could afford to get too far in front of their membership. Throwing yourself on a political grenade "for the good of all" sounds noble, but eliminates your usefulness in future battles, which are sure to come. The situation (and some pilot opinions), have changed in the last few days, and new SLI negotiations may now be more productive. There's still time to achieve a pre-merger agreement.

 

[Cobra17]

It doesn't really matter which uniform you wear or which side of the argument you are on. Anyone seriously think it will be an enjoyable place to work when half the employees (or at least the ones that are still around) feel they got screwed by the other half?

 

[justin15e]

I disagree veiw period. Why did you go into a rant? It was meant to be a calmly asked question. Nothing more. You've stated your point and it has some merit in areas but I disagree with it. Have you been furloughed? I doubt it because of your posted time.

I don't expect much but I don't feel that I should be junior to someone hired a month ago.

I went into a Rant because this type of attitude makes me angry. Like I said, it's the attitude that people need to "pay their dues" in order to get something in this industry (translation:take it in the shorts so that old guys can live it up). The industry is based on, put in your time, and you will get all your wildest dreams. But then when those dreams crash when mergers happen, we wonder what has happened.

Does it matter that I've never been furloughed? Do I need to be furloughed in order to understand that being furloughed stinks?

I agree, as a general rule, if you've been at your company for a few years and being integrated with a person who has been on station only a month, I'd say your pretty safe to say you won't be put behind them. However, it doesn't matter if you've been at your company for 25 years, if you're at the bottom of your list at your current company, you will be at the bottom of the list at the combined company.

You know what is a big problem with this industry? It's way too top loaded. Why do all the senior guys get "all" the best deals: the best routes, the best aircraft, the best hubs, the best schedule, the best pay, the most days off each month, the most vacation, etc.

How about this to blow you old airline pilots minds?

How about change the seniority system so that seniority doesn't cover what routes you fly?

This way seniority doesn't matter "as" much. It would basically be in place to determine the aircraft you fly, bases , and FO/Capt positions. That way, a few percentage points either way won't matter as much as it would have before.

I know, it's a ridiculous idea since the old guys would never go for it. They've put in their "dues" and the industry "owes" them. There are too many old, and as Obama would say, "bitter", people to get some real change to make the profession better.

Oh, and I can already sense the replies... "You haven't been in the industry long enough to have an opinion." "You wouldn't say that if you've been flying for 25 years". Whatever, try thinking outside your comfort zone once in a while.

 

[Occam's Razor]

My natural inclination is to be suspicious of any actions by a fellow MEC that compel them to hire a PR firm to sell to the membership.