What made Eastern GO Under?

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Competent Managers

This is going to be a little bit of thread creep...
FD109 or Enigma, you bring up an interesting point about management. My question is, in your careers, have you seen management people who you thought were good? I mean people who were good at their jobs and/or actually enjoyed their jobs.
FD109, despite EAL's problems, were there any managers around that you thought "if these folks were running the company this would be a better place"?
Without putting you on the spot Enigma, what is it like at Spirit?
I guess my take is you get people in jobs that are just looking for a job whether it be management or hourly. I think because they're in a job that they really don't like it becomes laborious for them. I'm not trying to defend this behavior but I think it is a reality. There aren't a lot of jobs out there that are enjoyable.
My gut feel is most successful management people are ones who want to do a good job and care about their work. The ones who hate their jobs will pass along to others through their attitude and performance.
It could be argued Crandall was successful in making AA a major airline but he seemed to be a miserable soul. He seemed to be driven not by wanting to run a good airline, but wanting to run everybody over just so he could be number one.

 

[publisher]

last time

I think that it was doomed because there were a bunch of people who did not want it saved.

If American Airlines showed up and wanted to save it, Ok. I jsut do not think anyone really credible showed up early enough in the game to save it.

I think ythat the IAM situation, not the pilot situation made it extremely unattractive on top of weak financials, debt load, fleet, etc.

You guys think Bush was out to help Lorenzo, I think that he was more pressured by the other airline ceo's to leave this alone than to help Lorenzo. They wanted Eastern to die.

Who helped Braniff, National, Pan American, TWA.

The only thing that made the bankruptcy court mad is that Lorenzo pillaged and left little for them except debt and obligations. Not their job to determine who is fit and not fit.

 

[enigma]

Re: Competent Managers

Without putting you on the spot Enigma, what is it like at Spirit?

I just receivedl the call for a trip, so I'll get more specific later. Generally, Spirit is a good place for pilots to work. As long as you show up and do your job, you'll never hear from a supervisor. Our Flight Ops staff is good people.

regards,
8N

 

[Tim47SIP]

Boeingman

A little off of the subject but you stated something that made me wonder.

LOL, but reading publishers posts, you must take into account that many people think like him. The people who view crossing a picket line blashpomeous (sp) are becoming fewer and fewer.

Do you really believe this today? Back when all of the Scabs became Scabs, there wasn't really allot known as to the reprocussions concerning their actions. Today, everyone knows what will happen to your carreer if you become a scab. The only individuals who I believe would cross in todays environment would be people who wanted to just get time to go work somewhere other than a major.

Personally, I would leave the business before crossing any picket line whether I agreed with the whys or not. I know of no one who would cross but I know of a whole lot of people who would like to get rid of ALPA. So even if the consensus are mad at the union, I don't think youll get great numbers of crossers.

What are your or anyones thoughts concerning this. Thanks.

 

[FD109]

Competent Airline Management

SDF2BUF2MCO,

Unfortunately I've never worked for what I would consider a good FINANCIAL/CORPORATE management team. There were a few that I thought at first would be, but they didn't make it.

Eastern's flight operations management, however, was absolutely first class. They were there through one group of incompetent financial wizards after another, and they were the ones who made Eastern a wonderful place to work, especially for pilots. Until Lorenzo, EAL really WAS a great place to work.

You should also note that a significant percentage of EAL's flight ops management honored the picket line (and that is almost unheard of as I'm sure you know) because they thought like the rest of us that it was the only possible way to save the company.

As to some of the good airline managers, I'd say, Herb K. at Southwest, C. E. Woolman at Delta, Bob Six at Continental. and I'm sure there are others, but these are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

We had hoped for Peter Uberroth at Eastern, but Lorenzo shot that deal down at the very last possible minute. Who knows how he would have worked out, but we had nowhere to go but up.

 

[Boeingman]

A little off of the subject but you stated something that made me wonder.

LOL, but reading publishers posts, you must take into account that many people think like him. The people who view crossing a picket line blasphemous (sp) are becoming fewer and fewer.

Do you really believe this today? Back when all of the Scabs became Scabs, there wasn't really allot known as to the repercussions concerning their actions. Today, everyone knows what will happen to your career if you become a scab. The only individuals who I believe would cross in today’s environment would be people who wanted to just get time to go work somewhere other than a major.

Personally, I would leave the business before crossing any picket line whether I agreed with the whys or not. I know of no one who would cross but I know of a whole lot of people who would like to get rid of ALPA. So even if the consensus is mad at the union, I don't think you’ll get great numbers of crossers.

What are your or anyone’s thoughts concerning this. Thanks.

I absolutely believe that more today than in 83. Especially in this economic and industry climate. Not discounting your ideals, but for many talk is cheap. Some who crossed stunned me and there were those who stayed out I never would have guessed. You never know who will back you until it is all over.

In 83, a lot was known about he consequences of crossing a picket line, yet at CAL, they came in droves. There were many former ALPA pilots who were new hires at CAL. They, along with the old CAL guys who crossed knew exactly what they were getting in to. Not that it bothered them in the least. I have always asked but no one can answer. Why are so many ex ALPA pilots on the CAL scab list?

Most of the former ALPA pilots who came were bitter at ALPA and didn't give a dang about the scab list or being blackballed. Today we see ALPA disenfranchising many younger pilots and getting a bad taste in their mouths about the mainline vs. regional divide. Either real or perceived.

Your last sentence is very prophetic. We felt the same way as did the EAL pilots I’m sure. We had the same belief that no one would cross our line. We were sorely mistaken. Those who attempt a strike now are in my opinion insane. I think the Comair pilots were very lucky management didn't try to operate.

Another mistake is to assume these guys are inferior in their abilities. I know that for a select few, especially on this board, that notion soothes some resentment. In reality it is not true. Having flown with these guys at CAL for years, I can safely say that they are no worse or better on average than any other pilot. In fact, during the strike, weak sisters were fired with no union protection so the ones who stayed were pretty sharp.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Boeingman]

Good post. It is this fact that makes me take the time to engage him. I'm stupid enough to think that I might actually affect some change in the way people like him think about professional pilots.

regards,
8N

LOL. There will always be a chasim between those who aspire/or are in management vs. the line grunt.

I've beaten my head agaisnt the wall with some over our pilots at CAL as well. Believe it or not, many very strong ALPA supporters are on the "list".

 

[FD109]

Re: last time

I think that it was doomed because there were a bunch of people who did not want it saved. ]

Now there's a specific answer!

"I think ythat [sic] the IAM situation, not the pilot situation made it extremely unattractive on top of weak financials, debt load, fleet, etc."

A little more specific, Publisher, but not much.

Eastern had problems. No question about that, but with the huge resources the company also had, the problems could have been overcome by competent management. Even Lorenzo said that in the bankruptcy filing.

As yet, you have neither suggested nor documented anything to show that Eastern's problems were insurmountable.

"You guys think Bush was out to help Lorenzo, I think that he was more pressured by the other airline ceo's to leave this alone than to help Lorenzo. They wanted Eastern to die.

I'm glad you are finally admitting that Bush took an active part in the destruction of EAL!

We're probably both correct as to his reasons, but Bush's connections to Lorenzo are too well documented and too obvious to ignore. Bush "left alone" the appointment of a PEB, but he took an active part by vetoing legislation that could have saved EAL.

"The only thing that made the bankruptcy court mad is that Lorenzo pillaged and left little for them except debt and obligations. Not their job to determine who is fit and not fit.

I don't know if the bankruptcy court was mad or not, but, don't forget, the bankruptcy court DID declare Lorenzo "unfit to reorganize this estate" when they booted him out.

Unfortunately, the court booted him a year too late because Lorenzo had enough SCABs to help him keep it running for that year while he stripped as much from the assets as possible.

Publisher, I'm proud of you! Though you've still failed to back up any of your arguments, or present any documented specifics, you've come a long way.

(1) You've admitted that George H. W. Bush was directly involved in Eastern's demise, and

(2) You've virtually admitted that Lorenzo was the last, and proximate cause of Eastern's death.

Now, if you'll re-examine you position on SCABs.

 

[publisher]

Typhoon

It is easy to say you will not cross a line when it is your union striking over what you feel is a fair issue.

The hard part is to stay out when you know that the whole thing is a pissing contest between one giant ego and another giant ego. Has nothing to do with you and will probably result in you losing everything.

What we seem to be arguing about is what the alternative to Lorenzo was. I say no one showed up. I say that there were more people in favor of letting it go down than keeping it up.

I think Bush wanted no part of this crap and left Lorenzo on his own to the appreciation of the other major management who wanted the airline to fail. Frankly I don't think you even thought of this probablility until I mentioned it.

I still do not think Lorenzo was the cause of anything. He was doing exactly what one should think he could do. Ok, they labelled him unfit.. Sure they did, he was not there to do anything except pillage. He has been involved in other airlines.

Did he care if he was labelled unfit, not really.

The part you seem so reluctant to see is that it does not make any difference unless someone showed up that was there to rebuild Eastern. You can talk about Peter U but really, he was just another pillage guy with no background in this at all.

People seem to think that I support scabs because in this case I think that there was no logic to this situation. I really do not know or care what the facts were at CAL or any other situation.

I have no interest in being in a union so obviously I have no feel for it and have never worked for a hourly pay check. I took a bunch of ex Eastern pilots down with me to Africa and they had no interest in getting shot at so there you go. Different strokes for different folks.

You can give me all the facts that you want to. At Evergreen we had planes that were painted in the postal service colors but they were not their's.

You or someone else was right about Comair. They did not try to operate. But, every minute since then, Delta has been taking steps to see that this never happens to them again. The other majors have started to divest their regionals. They will not say that this is a result of the strike but it is.

Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Anderson and others reported massive profits some years back. It was crap/ The paper lied.

Do you think anyone was going to come out in the press and say we are not interested in Eastern because their IAM union management are a bunch of you know whats and we think that theri maintenance people are incompetant boobs.

Get a life Typhoon. this is obviously more important to you than me.

 

[FD109]

We need an agent

Publisher,

After reading your reply to typhoon and your last one to me, something suddenly occured to me--I had a flash of insight.

Have you ever seen Pat Buchanan and Bill Press' show on CNN? If you haven't, they discuss and debate various issues with Buchanan representing the right and Press representing the left.

You and I need to get a good agent and approach CNN, or some other cable network, about a similar program. I still think you are full of crap and I'm sure you feel the same about me, but at least with our very own television program we could turn our personal crap coefficients into something from which we could make some money.

If you are interested, have your people contact my people, and we'll do lunch to talk about it.

Regards,

FD109

Hey guys: In response to a private message I just received--I'm joking and at the same time trying to make the point that we sometimes take ourselves and our points of view too seriously. It was a Joke for heavens sake; I don't really think CNN would talk to either Publisher or me.