What made Eastern GO Under?

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: FlyDeltasJets & Typhoon

Thanks for your comments. They are appreciated.

Your fathers and I thought we were doing the right thing. Based upon hindsight and our painful education into human nature and greed, we might choose to fight the battle a different way if we had to do it over again.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you took your best shot, knowing that if you let lorenzo come after you one union at a time, you wouldn't have had a chance. I don't know the answer, because in this case, hindsight is not 20/20. Who knows what might have resulted had the fight been fought differently. You folks did what you thought was right at the time, and that took courage.

We applaud you for it.

P.S.
Where were you based? Send me a PM if you would prefer.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...I must admit you are a bit more forgiving than I. After seeing what those poor men endured, I can never forgive the perpetrators (scabs, borman, and lorenzo), despite any dubious expressions of remorse. Respect? Out of the question.

Maybe "respect" was an overstatement.

Allow me to clarify. I found Turbo's post of 09-09-2002 10:05 (top of page 5 of this thread) very, very sad. It reminded me of LTCDR Queeg's soliloquy at the end of the court martial in The Caine Mutiny. It was obvious that being forced into admitting his actions during the Eastern strike drove Turbo over the edge. (By the way, did you notice how long it took him to finally admit what he is? If he's so proud of it, why all the evasion?)

Originally posted by TurboS7:
I know I took the legit seat of some other guy for a time, whoever that person is I owe them a lot and I thank them for sharing a part of aviation that was really neat.

Thanking the guy whose job he stole? (That's like a murderer/rapist apologizing to a victim's family, then saying "but if it makes you feel any better, she was a really good f_ck.") And then later, comparing himself to Christ?

Turbo's guilt over what he's done is causing him to unravel somewhat, and I can't bring myself to kick a man when he's down. He knows what he did, and I'm not going to insult him anymore. Let him disintegrate quietly.

As for Publisher, he--like all of us--is a product of his background. He represents heartless corporate management. It shouldn't surprise us that he would take up Lorenzo's point of view since they are on the same level (although I'm sure no federal judge has declared Publisher incompetent). As a former New Orleans D.A. once said, "what do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

 

[publisher]

I love you guys

There is not one thing that I have posted here that says I like or admire or anything about Lorenzo.

There is not one thing that I have posted here that says I have a policy position on people crossing a picket line in a labor dispute.

A couple of what I am sure you would call minor points.

My position is that this particular situation was so misjudged by parties to it, that whatever rules applied to crossing the line did not apply here in this situation.

Airlines habitually had a very high hidden reserve. Hidden reserve is the difference between book value of an asset and it's current market value. When airlines owned substantially all their fleets, that was like the bank. When slow times came, they would sell off aircraft, capture the hidden reserve as needed. Paid for assets could be used for critical cash during these times.

Eastern had been cashing in that reserve for sometime. That and a perceived militant labor group were two of the reasons that Eastern was not that attractive except to the sharks like Lorenzo and Uberoff. Hidden reserve is why American is the strongest airline in the world today.

Take that and some of the other points made earlier by others and you have the fatal wound.

What I cannot understand is how you take my observation and say that this is my position. I had no position in this matter at all. Frankly, could not care less about it. What I did do is observe and hear a good deal of this. I do not represent a position on this at all. I certainly did not support Lorenzo at all in this or management feelings. Frank was a, well add in your own expletive.

Let me explain something about bankruptcy and trustee's. They are bigger sharks than Frank. For those of you who doubt that, take a look at what Marty took out of there personally later.

A bankruptcy trustee is usually in this for what is in it for the trustee. They get paid a percentage of the transactions. They have no mission to save the company. When there is no cash to be had, they usually walk away.

For the last time, my feeling on the subject is that Eastern was doomed, was raped and pillaged by Lorenzo and others, and was liquidated because no one really came to save the day and all the parties did a terrible job of understanding what they were watching.

I said at the time that it was dead. I thought Frank was here for the spoils and left overs. I predicted that Charles Bryan was taking a position of optimistic suicide.

What I thought would happen did in fact happen.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: I love you guys

...Eastern was doomed...

Publisher, read carefully: the facts and figures (Eastern's and the feds', not ALPA's...see previous posts) do not support this conclusion. Eastern as we knew it would probably not be here today (i.e. merger, reorganization, etc.), but everybody probably would have kept their job.

Why are you clinging to this false assertion?

 

[flight-crew]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TurboS7:
I know I took the legit seat of some other guy for a time, whoever that person is I owe them a lot and I thank them for sharing a part of aviation that was really neat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Typhoon1244:
Thanking the guy whose job he stole? (That's like a murderer/rapist apologizing to a victim's family, then saying "but if it makes you feel any better, she was a really good f_ck.") And then later, comparing himself to Christ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Typhoon1244, I couldn't have said it better myself. Very nicely put.

 

[publisher]

Typhoon

Look if it makes you feel better, you are absolutely right.

It could have been, should have been, might have been, but, it was not.

If you believe that stuff and those figures, great. What you do not seem to understand is how the game is really played.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Typhoon

Originally posted by publisher
If you believe that stuff and those figures, great. What you do not seem to understand is how the game is really played.

You're probably right. Eastern, its shareholders, a federal court, and ALPA all agree that Eastern probably would have muddled through the early Nineties had it not been for Lorenzo's mismanagement and hostility to labor. You say they're all full of it.

I don't understand how "the game" is played? Is that the best evidence you can come up with to support your argument? Well thanks. That makes a whole lot of sense. I love your arguments, Publisher. When you can't prove your point, you fall back on smug remarks like "...you do not seem to understand..." like it's some secret that only you and other managers are privy to.

Look at the last Northwest strike. Not one scab, not a single one. It sure looked to me like they understood "the game." (I heard once that N.W.A. used to be called "Cobra Airlines." "We'll strike at anything.")

After all the mud and dust settle, the fact remains that ultimately, one man destroyed Eastern Air Lines...and since he's been banned from ever running an airline in this country again, there's one less corporate raider we need to worry about.

 

[FD109]

I can't believe it!!!

Publisher,

I actually agree with something you said:

You said, "Let me explain something about bankruptcy and trustee's. They are bigger sharks than Frank. For those of you who doubt that, take a look at what Marty took out of there personally later." I agree with you, but on this issue only.

In other parts of your post, you continue to argue that EAL was doomed, but you won't, or can't, back up your opinion with data or even one single specific. You cite only vague, nebulous generalities. Finally you fall back on the device of trying to discredit your opponents by saying that they "don't understand how the game is played."

Your statements begin to sound more and more like the excuses SCABS use to excuse their treachery. Come clean with us Publisher, do you defend the SCABS so vociferously due to pure philosophical passion, or is it something much more personal?

 

[enigma]

Re: I can't believe it!!!

Publisher,

In other parts of your post, you continue to argue that EAL was doomed, but you won't, or can't, back up your opinion with data or even one single specific.

FD109

Here's my two cents. The Publisher thinks that EAL was doomed because the EAL laborers were unionized.

regards,
8N

 

[FD109]

enigma,

You're probably right about that. Kinda makes you wonder how Southwest has survived with all those unionized workers they have. Competent management perhaps?

Have you noticed how incompetent managements love to blame their lack of expertise on unionized employees?