What is your company's parking brake procedure?

[sinkrate]

We at SKW are get shat on hard by UAL for dropping the parking brake immediately after the door close.

We are being audited by a nerd with a clipboard and being chatized for releasing the brake before the ground crew is in position.

We are sitting 5-10 minutes at the gate with no pay, or deicing with no pay because UAL has deemed taxi times are too long.

What is everyone else's procedure and are you having to do this if you work at anything UAL retared, um I mean related?

Your pay and your company's performance are one issue. You might want to look up the FAA's definition of 'flight time". If you log the time you are sitting at the gate as "flight time" you have falsified an entry in your log book. By the FAA's definition you have padded your flight time. What other flight times have you falsified? One pilot at my airline tried to claim since the door was closed and the brake released he should get paid for the 20 minutes he sat there. He made a really big issue of it in the CP's office. He also made the unfortunate statement that he had done that for a long time. The Company turned it over to the FAA and the FAA requested to see all his log books. He had cheated for so long he forgot he was cheating. The FAA fixed that.

 

[DoinTime]

Anyways, If 99% of people do it like you describe it, then I guess it is just a SKW problem. But I serious doubt it.

Unfortunately, 99% of people out there are not doing it this way but everyone should be. Instead many pilots out there are willing to risk their certificates by lying FOR the company. I never really could figure out how pilots so easily fall into being the b*tch of a one sided relationship.

 

[Raskal]

Unfortunately, 99% of people out there are not doing it this way but everyone should be. Instead many pilots out there are willing to risk their certificates by lying FOR the company. I never really could figure out how pilots so easily fall into being the b*tch of a one sided relationship.

Agreed. It's so common for other capt.'s at our company to drop it as soon as the door is closed that I have the more senior FA's occasionally complain if I don't drop the brake early. Simply not worth it to me.

 

[outtahere]

If my boarding door is closed and the cargo door is closed then I am ready for flight and ready to get paid. At that point I also have the intention of flying threfore it is also flight time. Don't know what the big issue is here. Luckily, so far all ASA and Delta want are performance numbers, so thats what we are giving them and it isn't cheating the system, we are ready to fly, if the rampers decide to leave well not my fault.

 

[labbats]

I used to love it on the F gates in ORD when the rampers would give the release brake signal and then they would all disappear for about 20 minutes.

They don't call them the F gates for nothin'.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

Respectfully, right now there isn't a bigger issue than my pay being cut 5-10 minutes (or more) per leg or not getting paid while deicing.

Man, it if means that much to you just delay that flight from pushing or if you want your few cents slow the aircraft down to a snails pace.

 

[Erlanger]

Man, it if means that much to you just delay that flight from pushing or if you want your few cents slow the aircraft down to a snails pace.

It does mean much. I fly probably 9 legs on average each week. 5 mins x 9 legs = 45 minutes x 4 weeks = 3 hrs. I make $80.33 an hr x 3 hrs x 12 months = $2891.88 a year.

 

[cale42]

Your pay and your company's performance are one issue. You might want to look up the FAA's definition of 'flight time". If you log the time you are sitting at the gate as "flight time" you have falsified an entry in your log book. By the FAA's definition you have padded your flight time. What other flight times have you falsified? One pilot at my airline tried to claim since the door was closed and the brake released he should get paid for the 20 minutes he sat there. He made a really big issue of it in the CP's office. He also made the unfortunate statement that he had done that for a long time. The Company turned it over to the FAA and the FAA requested to see all his log books. He had cheated for so long he forgot he was cheating. The FAA fixed that.

I have a hard time beleiving this. First of all the FAA doesn't even require you to log flight time except in accordance with rest requirements and max daily flight hours, so why would they care how you do it. Second of all in regards to max daily hours every POI in the country knows that those requirements are tracked based on block in and block out times which are based on brake release. I can't imagine the FAA supporting the arguement that that well this crewmember was modified to a day that had him flying 8 hours and 9 minutes in the book, and I'm going to argue it was alright because I sat at the gate for 10 minutes earlier in the day waiting for traffic to clear before I could push(with my engines running). I don't really see them supporting this as legal.. even the shadiest of places wouldn't try this.

Release the brake when the flight crew is ready to push or start engines. If it takes the ramp a minute or two to be there so be it. I fly a prop with electric starters. so we start number 2 at the gate before push. You mean to tell me when I'm operating a turbine engine with a big damn blade attached to it I shouldn't be paid for my time and logging it?? I heartily disagree..

cale

 

[Hikoushi]

Under the letter of the law, "flight time" begins when the airplane first MOVES "under it's own power" for the intention of flight. TECHNICALLY, then, pushback doesn't count, since the airplane is moving under the TUG's power.

But, everyone pretty much just logs block to block without thinking about it. No worries, FAA seems cool with that.

But riddle me this: if it's enough to get a guy violated to log time in the 121 world from the moment the engines are started (with the airplane parked), why is it totally okay for the same pilot to have logged "hobbs time" back in his GA days? Think about how long it takes to start, warm up, and run up a piston engine. All before the airplane first "moves under it's own power". That means, under the 121 version of time-logging logic that we all have to go back and erase something like 10-25% of our GA time to be legal.

I bet the FAA didn't touch that guy's GA time when they audited his "padded" logbook.

Why the double standard, hmm?

 

[CallmeJB]

At my company we have seperate PUSH, OUT, and OFF. PUSH is brake released doors closed, and OUT is brake release plus oil pressure plus NWS armed. The FAA block doesn't start running until OUT.

I think it's a sham. They probably can squeeze an extra 50 hours out of us in a year because of that, and avoid numerous 30/7 issues.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

At my company we have seperate PUSH, OUT, and OFF. PUSH is brake released doors closed, and OUT is brake release plus oil pressure plus NWS armed. The FAA block doesn't start running until OUT.

I think it's a sham. They probably can squeeze an extra 50 hours out of us in a year because of that, and avoid numerous 30/7 issues.

Yeah, but you are hurting yourself if you Aren't logging the push. If you are acting as PIC or SIC (which u are if the doors are shut and the brakes are off) then you can log the time. Especially when you consider that most airlines don't separate push time. If one airline's pilot can log it, you can too.

 

[Crossky]

But, everyone pretty much just logs block to block without thinking about it. No worries, FAA seems cool with that.

But riddle me this: if it's enough to get a guy violated to log time in the 121 world from the moment the engines are started (with the airplane parked), why is it totally okay for the same pilot to have logged "hobbs time" back in his GA days? Think about how long it takes to start, warm up, and run up a piston engine. All before the airplane first "moves under it's own power". That means, under the 121 version of time-logging logic that we all have to go back and erase something like 10-25% of our GA time to be legal.

I bet the FAA didn't touch that guy's GA time when they audited his "padded" logbook.

Why the double standard, hmm?

(1) From the FAR-AIM definitions: Flight Time means pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

Why the beef for not being able to log a push as flight time? Sure, 30/7 can be an issue but the only time including push time as flight time would benefit you is if you want to go home early. Otherwise, you're losing potential pay if you apply it to 30/7 and other legalities. Waahh, so in a year with 900 hours FAA time you log approx 75 hrs less (conservative guess) that you pushed, oh well, you'll have to fly another month or two to reach that magical 1000.

(2) Since when did any GA flight take .1 or more (6 min plus) to start 'em up and start taxiing out? Three minutes, tops. But I've done a 15 min + push plenty of times.

(3) My company records 'FAR Blk' and total Blk (push to in time) on my pay reports, and I assume my flight time they record will be sent with a PRIA request to a potential employer. It's in my best interests for my flight time in my logbook to match what my company sends to XXX airlines, don't you think?

 

[CallmeJB]

Why the beef for not being able to log a push as flight time? Sure, 30/7 can be an issue but the only time including push time as flight time would benefit you is if you want to go home early. Otherwise, you're losing potential pay if you apply it to 30/7 and other legalities. Waahh, so in a year with 900 hours FAA time you log approx 75 hrs less (conservative guess) that you pushed, oh well, you'll have to fly another month or two to reach that magical 1000.

How are we losing potential pay by applying it to 30/7? (I'm pretty sure we work at the same company) We get paid for PUSH time, and any legs dropped to remain compliant are paid! And 75 hrs less a year?!!!! That's the difference between working on XMAS, and getting all of December Off With Pay (OWP)! This stuff matters!

 

[DoinTime]

The long standing problem with getting pilots to truly embrace a compliance culture has always been an individual pilots self interest. When it comes to block out times someone always has their "reason" to violate the posted rules whether it be they are trying to build time, fatten their paycheck, or go home early for the week. I hope your regulatory compliance isn't so easily bendable in more critical circumstances.

 

[doug_or]

Stealth pay-cut.

No need to read much of any thing else into it.

You can always donate blood. Maybe some other liquids.