What Is This????

[HMR]

He, like myself, is generally driving the Learjet 31A. In most cases anything over 4000' is plenty of runway. This of course is assuming you actually cross over the numbers at Vref. Being on speed is a pretty rare event for most pilots these days I realize. At some point over the years, Vref+10 has become the new 1.3 X Vso. We routinely go in to and out of 4000' in ours and it is no sweat and I can honestly say I use no more braking action than I would use on a 8000' runway.

Let me get this straight; Bender Gonzales said to slow to 70-80kts using T/R's only then "gently apply brakes". Are you saying you can do this in 4000' in the 31A? Impressive.

Not sure what you mean about "most pilots" and Vref+10. Hasn't been my experience. Vref+10 will put you in the weeds at our home base as a Lear crew found out last year.

 

[jrbevis]

This post for some reason has pissed me off. Most of the replies dont make one bit of sence to me. If the boss says to wipe off the strut then do it, for what ever reason. I am young and havnt been in THIS buisness for long but I think... Oh screw it, by the sound of most of your posts not many of you would understand what I am trying to say. Actually the beer is whats making it hard to understand!

goodnight

ps

pilotchapin sounds like an ass!

let me ask you. Where did you start out? How much were you maing when you had 700 hours? I am glad I dont have to sit next to you!

 

[Gatorman]

Ya'know, you stick pushers just keep flying your junkers, I won't mind taking the money to overhaul your gear.
Don't you worry, I won't tell the owner that a little preventive maintenance could have kept their plane in the air instead of being down for MX for a week.

 

[h25b]

Let me get this straight; Bender Gonzales said to slow to 70-80kts using T/R's only then "gently apply brakes". Are you saying you can do this in 4000' in the 31A? Impressive.

Not sure what you mean about "most pilots" and Vref+10. Hasn't been my experience. Vref+10 will put you in the weeds at our home base as a Lear crew found out last year.

The 31A really is "overbraked," in other words, it has way more braking ability than it needs and you really never should end up all over them. Like I said, we go in to 4000' all of the time and we got about 420 cycles out of our last set of brakes because we fly on the numbers...

 

[501261]

I'm glad you finally asked. When I get back from Dinner, I'll honor your request.........

Wow, 7 days that's a long dinner. What happened, Googling "fadeout" didn't give you any good answers ?

 

[LRvsH25B]

Wow, 7 days that's a long dinner. What happened, Googling "fadeout" didn't give you any good answers ?

Was that really necessary? This topic was dead and gone. Most of us don't want to hear this crap. Hawker whoever and G whoever had both dropped it, why couldn't you? That's why it is so difficult to want to be a part of this forum, too many children like 501261 beating dead horses.

As for brake fade, are you suggesting that it is not a serious problem in aviation (autos as well)? Check in with the guys over at Carlsbad and get their thoughts on the issue. Geting on the brakes at high speeds will in fact cause brake fade, especially in heavy corporate jet aircraft. You might not hear about it alot, but do not think for 1 minute that it does not exist. Maybe you should try to listen and learn something instead of running your mouth about subjects you know nothing about. Personally, I have no problem with pilots flying in a conservative manner in order to aviod this from happening to them, but hey, that's just me. Flying with Carbon Fiber brakes is a great way to avoid "brake Fade", but steel brakes do not have that luxury.

Something from Google for you:
"Brake pedal fade can occur for two primary reasons. The most common is the over heating of the brake fluid to a point where the fluid actually boils and turns to gas. The other common scenario is the over heating of the brake pad friction material to a point where it simply disintegrate from the pad backing plate."

You see 501261, boiling of the brake fluid is not a good thing. The gas escapes off of the brake components, and because that gas can be compressed, when the brakes are applied, that now compressed gas creates a "glaze" between pads and disk, causing 0 (zero) friction. Friction is what causes that aircraft to slow or stop. Do I need to go on or have you now gotten the big picture. Never thought I would have to give dual over the internet!

I am not trying to be hard to get along with, but this should have been covered in basic "jet 101". Please drop this Topic, as everyone else seemed to but you.

 

[troy]

I am now dumber for reading 6 pages of garbage.

 

[Flyerjosh]

I am now dumber for reading 6 pages of garbage.

Agreed. But then again, there's a lot of that on this board...

FWIW, I wipe the struts from time to time, whenever it needs it. Also polish the chrome leading edges and TRs, typically once a month, maybe a bit more in the summer. (FLIX sucks... try Mother's Chrome Polish. Does a great job for 1/2 the price and you don't need an electric buffer)

We wipe down the airplane on a regular basis as well. I also load bags, arrange and serve catering, do revisions, clean windows and vacuum the interior. All of that and I still fly from the left seat from time to time.

My company doesn't have a mechanic. That's fine by me. When I need MX, I write it up and it gets fixed. If the airplane's dirty, I pull it out of the hangar on a nice day and spend the day cleaning her up. We have the nicest looking plane on the field (just about anywhere we go). If it's really bad, I enlist help. Sometimes they do the work for me (I usually have other jobs for them to do anyway and I like being outside).

If I need to do that to justify my salary, so be it. BTW, for those of you who are about to bitch about me cleaning, if you work out the flight time to pay ratio, I get paid roughly $355/flight hour to fly in a Citation... That's not too bad... even if I have to climb out of bed at 1130am to go out and wipe down the plane from time to time.

 

[AA717driver]

We have 'people' to wipe our struts. TC

 

[Gatorman]

FWIW, I wipe the struts from time to time, whenever it needs it. Also polish the chrome leading edges and TRs, typically once a month, maybe a bit more in the summer. (FLIX sucks... try Mother's Chrome Polish. Does a great job for 1/2 the price and you don't need an electric buffer)

We wipe down the airplane on a regular basis as well. I also load bags, arrange and serve catering, do revisions, clean windows and vacuum the interior. All of that and I still fly from the left seat from time to time.

My company doesn't have a mechanic. That's fine by me. When I need MX, I write it up and it gets fixed. If the airplane's dirty, I pull it out of the hangar on a nice day and spend the day cleaning her up. We have the nicest looking plane on the field (just about anywhere we go). If it's really bad, I enlist help. Sometimes they do the work for me (I usually have other jobs for them to do anyway and I like being outside).

If I need to do that to justify my salary, so be it. BTW, for those of you who are about to bitch about me cleaning, if you work out the flight time to pay ratio, I get paid roughly $355/flight hour to fly in a Citation... That's not too bad... even if I have to climb out of bed at 1130am to go out and wipe down the plane from time to time.

You go Booooeeey!

I like the last part best (snickering at the Gulfstream, Challenger, and Falcon crews)
Bwaaahaaaahaaaa!

 

[LegacyDriver]

I wipe off the "hub caps" on our birds because they look much better when shiny white (and nobody else will do it). That's the OCD side of my personality coming out I guess, but it lead to a question.

I have ceramic brakes on my cars because I hate cleaning brake dust out of the rims all the time. They are dust free and worth every penny. Why can't we install these on airplanes? Black brake dust everywhere is such an eyesore for some reason...

 

[Flyerjosh]

I wipe off the "hub caps" on our birds because they look much better when shiny white (and nobody else will do it). That's the OCD side of my personality coming out I guess, but it lead to a question.

I have ceramic brakes on my cars because I hate cleaning brake dust out of the rims all the time. They are dust free and worth every penny. Why can't we install these on airplanes? Black brake dust everywhere is such an eyesore for some reason...

There might be issues with rotation speeds for ceramic brakes? Since they would have to be bigger than car brakes, and the rotational/centripital forces greater, wouldn't there possibly be limitations?

Don't know, I just fly them (and clean them from time to time). But like my first flight instructor said- "If you don't look good doing what you do, why bother? Besides... it's all about the hair"

 

[LegacyDriver]

Good point. Wish we had a brake expert here to 'splain!

 

[Blackjet]

I wipe off the "hub caps" on our birds because they look much better when shiny white (and nobody else will do it). That's the OCD side of my personality coming out I guess, but it lead to a question.

I have ceramic brakes on my cars because I hate cleaning brake dust out of the rims all the time. They are dust free and worth every penny. Why can't we install these on airplanes? Black brake dust everywhere is such an eyesore for some reason...

Carbon Fiber brakes will take care of these issues. The problem for most is from an economic standpoint. A CL60 set of Carbon Fibers will set the owner back 100K. Are they worth it, yes, but explaining the difference for the $ can be tough to get across to a #s guy. Aside from cleaner wear, Carbon Fiber works very well when they get heated up and if used properely (such as fluid and continuous applications instead of jumping on and off of them while taxing as well as also riding them a little bit during taxi out to get them heated up) they will last forever. The real selling point is when they are used under rapid and heavy deceleration. Impressive!

 

[HMR]

Brake fade?

As for brake fade, are you suggesting that it is not a serious problem in aviation (autos as well)? Check in with the guys over at Carlsbad and get their thoughts on the issue. Geting on the brakes at high speeds will in fact cause brake fade, especially in heavy corporate jet aircraft.

Do you think crossing the fence at Vref+90 might've played a bigger role in the accident?