What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[PositiveRate]

How many hundreds of posts do we need on this?

The East totally disregards the fact that their entire seniority list was about to be unemployed pre-merger. For AWA, this makes their sense of entitlement even more apalling.

The East sees themselves as superior to AWA - kind of like a Skywest pilot looking down their nose at a Mesa pilot. Righteousness and pride are generally bad things for the soul. That's all I'm going to say about that.

The East believed they would prevail in arbitration. Had the list gone their way, we would already have a joint contract and USAPA would not have emerged. They will spin this ad infinum to further the position that they are entitled to much more than they were given. It's useless arguing with them.

The East will now attempt to take from AWA (via USAPA) what they believe they deserve as the defined process did not produce the desired results.

In the meantime, they will accept to delay any improvement to QOL and pay that a joint contract may offer as well as sacrifice any insurance ALPA might provide should a medical, FAA, or CP issue arise...you know...all the stuff that doesn't happen to you, but you magically hear about others dealing with.

This is about spite, pride and years upon years of having to eat the career $hit sandwhich for dinner. They're so focused on what they deserve/need, that they justify and explain away the fact they are more than willing to throw another group under the bus if it will relieve some of their suffering.

There is zero point in debating this further. Vote and be done with it. My big fear is that regardless of how the vote turns out, the fight will only intensify as a result. I don't see how any unity is achieved with either outcome...that is a serious problem.

There's a lot of jumping to conclusion here that this will kill the entire airline and the liquidation fate will once again be upon us all - I don't buy that in the least. Yes, it will suck here for some time to come, but we're giving ourselves far too much credit to assume our squabbles will destroy the airline. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[PositiveRate]

Here's an interesting letter from a retired East air safety chairmen. We've received similar letters from the Aeromedical folks...in fact, I believe aeromedical stated they WILL NOT contract with USAPA as they do with SWAPA and UPS.

Things that make you go 'hmmm'.....
-------------------------------------------------

Feb. 15, 2008

Fellow US Airways pilots:

For those of you who don’t remember me, let me introduce myself. My name is John Cox, and I spent over 20 years of my airline pilot career as an ALPA safety representative. Starting at the original Piedmont Airlines, then at US Airways, I held a number of leadership positions, including accident investigator, Local Safety Committee member, MEC Chief Accident Investigator, MEC Safety Chairman, and ALPA Int’l Accident Investigation Board member. Finally, I rounded up my ALPA work by serving as the ALPA Int’l Executive Air Safety Chairman from 1999 until I retired from US Airways at the end of 2004.

During all those years I spent doing safety work, I saw firsthand the resources available to assist ALPA members during difficult times. And I’ll be the first to tell you that an independent union will never have the resources and the expertise available that you may need to protect yourself and your career if you find yourself involved in an aircraft accident or serious incident.

Over the years as an ALPA representative, I’ve helped plenty of pilots out of difficult situations. I know firsthand what calling that number on the orange card means to a pilot. It means that ALPA resources are available to protect you, no matter where you are or what happened. Countless pilot representatives like myself, backed up by professional, full-time staff, spend their careers guarding the reputations and careers of ALPA members by bringing about safety improvements to our profession.

Take the accident involving US Airways Flight 5050, for example.

In September 1989, ALPA pilots were involved in a high-speed rejected takeoff at LaGuardia airport. Unfortunately, the aircraft overran the end of the runway and ended up in the East River. The aircraft broke into three pieces upon impact and was destroyed. I remember it well because I was a member of the ALPA accident investigation team that came when those pilots called the number on their orange card.

The accident scene quickly turned ugly for the flight crew. In addition to the technical, operational, and training issues involved in the accident sequence, our pilots faced the threat of criminal charges being filed against them by the local New York District Attorney.

That’s when ALPA’s Legal Department stepped in. In addition to the ALPA lawyers who were on the case, ALPA hired criminal attorneys to represent our pilots in criminal court. After the conclusion of the accident investigation, ALPA Legal and Engineering and Air Safety Department resources also helped them keep their jobs when faced with disciplinary action by the airline.


ALPA’s expertise and access also helped them keep their airman’s certificates when facing certificate action by the FAA, saving the pilots’ flying careers. Simply put, ALPA—with the help of safety representatives like myself—saved their jobs, their reputations, and their livelihoods.

This help is not cheap, by the way. A typical accident investigation will cost ALPA about $200,000. Add any sort of complication, however, and those costs can skyrocket. The threat of criminal prosecution and/or a disciplinary attack, for example, drives the costs up exponentially. The criminal attorney costs in this case alone ran about $500,000, and that was almost 20 years ago.

This story is just one of many I can tell. During the 20 years I spent as an ALPA safety representative, I participated in the investigation of dozens of accidents and serious incidents. I testified on behalf of countless pilots involved in FAA certificate action cases, and I represented dozens of ALPA members involved in disciplinary hearings before their airlines.

There is now a question about an independent union for US Airways pilots. I can tell you that if you choose to go it alone with an independent union, then you will indeed be alone. I know that an independent union can never replace the ALPA resources needed to protect a pilot in case of an aircraft accident or serious incident.

As a safety representative, I know that safety and politics have to remain separate. However, when it comes to a representational decision, it must be an informed decision. Leaving the ALPA fold means leaving behind your orange card—along with all the resources and expertise that come with it. Do not forget just how many resources a single accident can exhaust, because USAPA cannot go it alone. Before you cast your vote, ask yourself if you can afford to lose your orange card—the one ALPA resource you pray you never have to use.

Fraternally,

Capt. John Cox (US Airways, retired)
Former ALPA Int’l Executive Air Safety Chairman (1999–2004) ​

 

[FR8mastr]

uke:
so, to paraphrase...your local representatives are to blame for your plight, but you also blame the national union for "letting your local representatives be so stupid."

The perfect solution you have come up with is to eliminate the national union on your property, thereby having nobody around to "not stop your local representatives from making stupid decisions."

I still don't see the part where you've fixed your local representatives from making stupid decisions.

Pretty much EVERY anti-alpa post on this thread needs to have "ALPA" replaced with "US Airways MEC". Then we'll see where the problems lie. But if you morons want to go around believing it was ALPA who outsourced your flying to MESA, instead of YOUR OWN D*MN PILOTS, then be my guest. To me USAPA seems to be just another bunch of East pilots making stupid decisions.


Apparently what you wanted to have happen in the above scenario is for ALPA National to have REFUSED to sign any of your bankruptcy era deals that SAVED your company. This would have most likely resulted in the liquidation of your carrier. In other words, sacrifice the weak in for the good of the majority. Lucky for YOU, they didn't...somewhat UNlucky for the rest of us.

s
Nice spin, but no

 

[Captzaahlie]

Here's an interesting letter from a retired East air safety chairmen. We've received similar letters from the Aeromedical folks...in fact, I believe aeromedical stated they WILL NOT contract with USAPA as they do with SWAPA and UPS.

Things that make you go 'hmmm'.....
-------------------------------------------------

Feb. 15, 2008

Fellow US Airways pilots:

For those of you who don’t remember me, let me introduce myself. My name is John Cox, and I spent over 20 years of my airline pilot career as an ALPA safety representative. Starting at the original Piedmont Airlines, then at US Airways, I held a number of leadership positions, including accident investigator, Local Safety Committee member, MEC Chief Accident Investigator, MEC Safety Chairman, and ALPA Int’l Accident Investigation Board member. Finally, I rounded up my ALPA work by serving as the ALPA Int’l Executive Air Safety Chairman from 1999 until I retired from US Airways at the end of 2004.

During all those years I spent doing safety work, I saw firsthand the resources available to assist ALPA members during difficult times. And I’ll be the first to tell you that an independent union will never have the resources and the expertise available that you may need to protect yourself and your career if you find yourself involved in an aircraft accident or serious incident.

Over the years as an ALPA representative, I’ve helped plenty of pilots out of difficult situations. I know firsthand what calling that number on the orange card means to a pilot. It means that ALPA resources are available to protect you, no matter where you are or what happened. Countless pilot representatives like myself, backed up by professional, full-time staff, spend their careers guarding the reputations and careers of ALPA members by bringing about safety improvements to our profession.

Take the accident involving US Airways Flight 5050, for example.

In September 1989, ALPA pilots were involved in a high-speed rejected takeoff at LaGuardia airport. Unfortunately, the aircraft overran the end of the runway and ended up in the East River. The aircraft broke into three pieces upon impact and was destroyed. I remember it well because I was a member of the ALPA accident investigation team that came when those pilots called the number on their orange card.

The accident scene quickly turned ugly for the flight crew. In addition to the technical, operational, and training issues involved in the accident sequence, our pilots faced the threat of criminal charges being filed against them by the local New York District Attorney.

That’s when ALPA’s Legal Department stepped in. In addition to the ALPA lawyers who were on the case, ALPA hired criminal attorneys to represent our pilots in criminal court. After the conclusion of the accident investigation, ALPA Legal and Engineering and Air Safety Department resources also helped them keep their jobs when faced with disciplinary action by the airline.


ALPA’s expertise and access also helped them keep their airman’s certificates when facing certificate action by the FAA, saving the pilots’ flying careers. Simply put, ALPA—with the help of safety representatives like myself—saved their jobs, their reputations, and their livelihoods.

This help is not cheap, by the way. A typical accident investigation will cost ALPA about $200,000. Add any sort of complication, however, and those costs can skyrocket. The threat of criminal prosecution and/or a disciplinary attack, for example, drives the costs up exponentially. The criminal attorney costs in this case alone ran about $500,000, and that was almost 20 years ago.

This story is just one of many I can tell. During the 20 years I spent as an ALPA safety representative, I participated in the investigation of dozens of accidents and serious incidents. I testified on behalf of countless pilots involved in FAA certificate action cases, and I represented dozens of ALPA members involved in disciplinary hearings before their airlines.

There is now a question about an independent union for US Airways pilots. I can tell you that if you choose to go it alone with an independent union, then you will indeed be alone. I know that an independent union can never replace the ALPA resources needed to protect a pilot in case of an aircraft accident or serious incident.

As a safety representative, I know that safety and politics have to remain separate. However, when it comes to a representational decision, it must be an informed decision. Leaving the ALPA fold means leaving behind your orange card—along with all the resources and expertise that come with it. Do not forget just how many resources a single accident can exhaust, because USAPA cannot go it alone. Before you cast your vote, ask yourself if you can afford to lose your orange card—the one ALPA resource you pray you never have to use.

Fraternally,

Capt. John Cox (US Airways, retired)
Former ALPA Int’l Executive Air Safety Chairman (1999–2004) ​

Not to change the subject.... YAWN.

Things that make you really go HMMMM!

His former wife has a really nice "[SIZE=-1]Empanage".[/SIZE]....

 

[DustyBottoms]

There is zero point in debating this further. Vote and be done with it. My big fear is that regardless of how the vote turns out, the fight will only intensify as a result. I don't see how any unity is achieved with either outcome...that is a serious problem.

Exactly right. Regardless if we keep ALPA or get USAPA, it will not solve any of the East's problems. The fighting will continue. This Airline (AWA) is a complete mess now.

Another question to ask the East guys: Do you wish that this whole merger never would have happened? I ask this to guys on the west, and almost 100% say F-no (even with our so called "windfall"). But can you Easties say the same thing and still lie straight in bed?

 

[UALjan15]

Another question to ask the East guys: Do you wish that this whole merger never would have happened? I ask this to guys on the west, and almost 100% say F-no (even with our so called "windfall"). But can you Easties say the same thing and still lie straight in bed?

This is the other question that always brings out the crickets. I've never heard 'em answer it one way or the other. With the typical eastside hubris, I'd expect them to just say they'd be better off without us. Sure, it would strip away some of their credibility, but is there anything left to strip?

 

[Green]

s
Nice spin, but no

where's the spin? were you on property when all these events went down?

 

[Turtle21]

I think they are doing the opposite of what they have always done. They have always trusted ALPA, now they dont.


See you can find common ground

It is ironic that none advocate for choosing ALPA.

Oh, wait. I suppose we could acknowledge that many have adopted ALPA's ubiquitous and unrelenting campaign of FUD. Perhaps emulation equals adulation?

ALPA is like an abusive husband being removed from the house... as he is being pushed through the door, he braces himself with both hands and feet against the door jam and make one last plea... "If you don't let me stay, I'll send some one who will beat you worse than I do!"

 

[Green]

It is ironic that none advocate for choosing ALPA.

Oh, wait. I suppose we could acknowledge that many have adopted ALPA's ubiquitous and unrelenting campaign of FUD. Perhaps emulation equals adulation?

ALPA is like an abusive husband being removed from the house... as he is being pushed through the door, he braces himself with both hands and feet against the door jam and make one last plea... "If you don't let me stay, I'll send some one who will beat you worse than I do!"

enjoy this moment turtle. All the USAPA supporters are so gleeful it's downright nauseating. I can't wait to see the look on your faces when the courts eventually overthrow whatever bullsh#t solution USAPA imposes and you all 'lose your career expectations' for the second time. It will be a miserable way to cap off a terrible career and you'll have nobody to blame but your own ignorant selves. have at it....

 

[PositiveRate]

Turtle,

Unbelievable. Your posts are so hypocritical I don't even know where to start.

Answer this please - Had the arbitration favored the East more or even completely, would the USAPA drive have come to pass?

Also answer this please - Would you have prefered not to merge with America West and where do you see yourself and fellow East pilots ending up had the merger not happened?

The fact that you even get to have this debate with us is because the merger saved your airline. The fact that USAPA exists is because you allowed your leadership to far overreach throughout the process.

All the change your little heart desires could be achieved with a sweeping leadership change on your MEC. Why you would voluntarily toss any of the myriad career protections offered to you by ALPA to 'make a statement' is beyond me. That is why every AWA pilot questions the intent of USAPA - the change you desire could be achieved within the ALPA structure. Therefore, one must question the intent of USAPA as to what sort of change you are looking for. You want your way, like a child who is told no, but doesn't comprehend why he's told no or how to be reasonable. That's the real analogy - not the BS about the abusive husband.

Who was that comedian who said 'you can't fix stupid' - you guys are doing a phenominal job of proving his theory.

Answer the 2 questions above or don't even bother responding and put me on your ignore list.