What is going on at Avantair?

[gunfyter]

He would be a Captain now... But he could not have known that in 2004. He made a good decision for the information available at that time.

in 2004 we were just presented with a SUBstandard TA after 3 yrs of negotiating.


We were told that there would be only maybe 300 more hires for the LIFE of the contract... and that we were BROKE!... Cant afford raises for pilots.

So yes he made a good call for what we knew then.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

Sifting thru your post.... I found something relevant ...hope springs eternal...

I highlighted the part of your post I wanted to discuss further. How much difference is there between the Avanti (?) and the Ultra as far as the pax would notice? If it is significant then the case could be made for paying the pilot less---maybe. On the other hand, does an Avantair pax want a pilot any less experienced than NJ pax demand? The adage "You get what you pay for" isn't something people want to apply to their safety is it? Let the company charge less for the plane but a comparable price for a pilot and make the safety/experience point to the owner. I doubt that they'd want to cut corners on pilots.

So tell me, when planes buy fuel in the FBOs do the smaller companies with fewer planes get a discount because they're new to the industry? Isn't the fuel a cost of doing business that all companies must pay regardless of size? Why then should pilots have to subsidize newer companies when no other aspect of the business does? Why don't more pilots have the attitude that their salaries are a cost of doing business? When the NJ pilots adjusted their way of thinking they were able to get a much improved contract.

GP, the frac industry is growing, not shrinking, so demand for the service is increasing. Why should the pilots be left behind financially? Something in your post caught my eye---"Now you and your "knowledgeable NJ FO" can realign your expectations and drop your $50K to start fantasy". I'm quite sure that all the first year NJ FOs on the reserve schedule are glad that didn't happen! Those pilots now have a base pay of $46, 286, plus very good benefits. Many are making over $50K when per diem, holiday pay, and OT are counted. My husband and other NJ pilots worked to get the pay brought up significantly.

Jonjuan, have you noticed that among professionals there seems to be a fairly set price for their services? Doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc all charge fairly close to the same for an office call. For that matter, so do auto garages and plumbers. The idea of a market price is very common. One frequently hears expressions like--the going rate. I don't think the notion of a minimum rate for a pilot's wages would surprise any of the frac owners. Yes, the NetJet name alone can command a premium, but I don't think owners at the other frac companies expect to get comparable transportation for a significantly lower price. Perhaps the frac companies need to do a better job of educating owners if that's the case. If need be, the pilots can. You don't get what you don't ask for. Informational picketing helped the NJ pilots. As for comparing the frac business to the airlines, I hear the the NJ pilots say that you can't do that because the industries are so different and the pax base certainly is. Comparing NJ costs isn't too helpful because the company has been notorious for wasting money... The pilots did the company a favor by demanding professional compensation. They're starting to make efforts to run the company more efficiently now they can no longer balance the budget at the expense of the pilots.

I believe that frac pilots share more common ground than differences. I think that the industry is big enough for a variety of companies, and that the pilots would gain from working together to support one another in their efforts to gain better contracts. I saw firsthand what the NJ pilots did to improve their situation, and I firmly believe that any of the rest of you could do the same thing. Flight Options is in the process right now. Flex is taking the first step. If those two are successful, it will help to strengthen the industry and make things easier for smaller pilot groups to also get the going rate. I appreciate those of you who focused on the issues and avoided personal insults. Best Wishes to you and yours, NJW

PS It's all about standing up for what you deserve--the going rate. Whatever means available to your group that works for you--has my support.

Most pilots just don't get the big picture. In the fractional industry you guys are flying around the RICHEST people in the country. Do you really think if each owner was charged an additional amount of money every year, let's just say 40 grand for a nice round number, and that money was passed on to the pilot, that these people would just stop flying? The answer is no.

And so what if Avantair is a start-up company. Pilots are a cost of doing business in aviation, and they should be paid well. Let's say Avantair gets their act together in a few years and pay is good. The pilots that have been there all that time would still have left all that money on the table. Even 20 grand a year times five years is a 100 grand. I'd like to find a check for that amount of money in my mailbox- most people would. Oh, the small minds that are out there.

 

[netjetwife]

So a 3rd yr PIC that is not a training captain makes $64K? Not that different from where the NJ pilots were just a year ago. Their new contract was ratified last Nov. (3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560) There is a proposal being worked on to get training pilots at NJA more money (on top of the extra they make now) because the over haul of training there has placed additional responsibilities on them. I don't think any of us disagree that those who do extra work deserve the extra pay.

For all the talk of NJ being so much bigger and harder to compete against, it seems that in the area of upgrading Avantair could easily be competitive. Perhaps that competition might persuade NJA to raise FO wages next time around. Where are Avantair pilots based? That's another area I'd like to see NJ have to become more flexible because of the hiring market. It wouldn't be hard to beat NJA on their domicile system...

 

[netjetwife]

Mr. Pebbles,from my experience talking to pilots about raising the bar on frac wages there seems to be two distinct mind-sets--they're either selfish (the I've got mine crowd, forget you) or fearful. I agree with you that too many pilots think they should just be thankful to have a flying job, in spite of being in a growing industry where management makes lucrative deals with wealthy owners who want the best and are able to afford it. Interestingly enough, both groups make some of the same excuses for perpetuating the indefensible status quo. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

....And so what if Avantair is a start-up company. Pilots are a cost of doing business in aviation, and they should be paid well. Let's say Avantair gets their act together in a few years and pay is good. The pilots that have been there all that time would still have left all that money on the table. Even 20 grand a year times five years is a 100 grand. I'd like to find a check for that amount of money in my mailbox- most people would. Oh, the small minds that are out there.

The right thing to happen in a situation where pilots invest in the company by giving up part of their salary for expansion--Retro Pay--can turn out very wrong in the end, unfortunately. Some of the NJ pilots figured they did lose $100K, just as you have pointed out. Those in the thick of the contract battle could see that they weren't going to be able to get full Retro pay. The reason given--the pilots themselves were partly to blame for the situation dragging out so long. In other words, their patience was used against them at the bargaining table.... That $100K turned out to be only $40K in the end. The pilots go only $10K for each year that they had invested in the growth of their company. They had believed those promises of help me now and I'll take care of you later. When they got tired of waiting and called in the IOUs they were told--Retro? Sorry, too late now, you should have said something back then. Here's your signing bonus.

 

[johnsonrod]

This post is like the movie Groundhog Day - it keeps going and going and going... Please spare us all!!!!!!!!!!

I keep hearing that Sonny & Cher song "I've got you babe."

 

[Dilligaff]

This post is like the movie Groundhog Day - it keeps going and going and going... Please spare us all!!!!!!!!!!

I keep hearing that Sonny & Cher song "I've got you babe."

I'm amazed at the momentum this thread has picked up while I was gone for a few days. But what better source do I have to learn about my company than from some expert who doesn't work here?!?

Dilligaff

 

[SCT]

"But what better source do I have to learn about my company than from some expert who doesn't work here?!? ".....Dilligraf

DG- Nutjetwife, knows so much about aviation (just ask her), I think she should run the FAA. What did us poor helpless pilots do w/o her all these yrs????

SCT

 

[glasspilot]

"A knowledgeable FO told me pilots should start at $50K and go up quickly".

That pretty much sums it up right there. Why does someone have to tell you what pilots are worth? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue for lower pilot pay. I'd love to have Warren Buffet money or Bill Gates money. Problem is I live in the real world. Pilot pay is not based on what some wife and her knowledgeable FO think it should be. It's based on market forces. Just because fractionals are doing well right now does not change that. Fractional pilots are not special pilots on their own island of flying. A pilot is a pilot. A major pilot or a regional pilot or a cargo pilot is qualified to do the job. Fractional pilots can not sit and watch all other groups lose their jobs and security and say, "too bad they're screwed. Doesn't affect me." It does affect fractional pilots because those pilots are going to migrate to the where the jobs and job security are. NJW and her husband are not special with special thoughts of prosperity. ALL PILOTS want jobs and job security and they will go where the money and security are. Look at me...ex regional, ex cargo found a job at a fractional. I tried to go corporate but was unable as I had no corporate experience. Fractional was as close as I could get. I'm not special either. There are tons of us ex-airline pilots migrating to fractionals.

Like it or not industry woes are our woes. NJ got a sweet contract. Great. My company now has to compete with that salary to attract pilots. But for me and a lot of pilots the fact that avantair does not have 2500 pilots means I'll take the lower pay. You see, I want to be the skipper. I do NOT want to sling gear for a living. I've done it too long and couldn't imagine having to do it for the better part of a decade at NJ.

My only point in all of this is that I have good reason to go to avantair. It's the upgrade. I see potential. They have a great product. And I believe in Peak Oil and I think that will be the achilles tendon of NJ, CS, FLOPS, FLEX, and the rest, and the saviour of avantair. (Never heard of Peak Oil? Google it.! Enjoy the read!)

I don't need to be told how sub-par my pay, benefits, vacation, etc are. You worry about your worries and I'll worry about mine. Trust me, in 5 years when Jet-A is $25 a gallon and ya'll sending planes to the desert I won't be on this board telling you how much your worth.






Again, that's PEAK OIL. Look it up, we all knew it was coming.

 

[Flybet3]

"A knowledgeable FO told me pilots should start at $50K and go up quickly".

That pretty much sums it up right there. Why does someone have to tell you what pilots are worth? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue for lower pilot pay. I'd love to have Warren Buffet money or Bill Gates money. Problem is I live in the real world. Pilot pay is not based on what some wife and her knowledgeable FO think it should be. It's based on market forces. Just because fractionals are doing well right now does not change that. Fractional pilots are not special pilots on their own island of flying. A pilot is a pilot. A major pilot or a regional pilot or a cargo pilot is qualified to do the job. Fractional pilots can not sit and watch all other groups lose their jobs and security and say, "too bad they're screwed. Doesn't affect me." It does affect fractional pilots because those pilots are going to migrate to the where the jobs and job security are. NJW and her husband are not special with special thoughts of prosperity. ALL PILOTS want jobs and job security and they will go where the money and security are. Look at me...ex regional, ex cargo found a job at a fractional. I tried to go corporate but was unable as I had no corporate experience. Fractional was as close as I could get. I'm not special either. There are tons of us ex-airline pilots migrating to fractionals.

Like it or not industry woes are our woes. NJ got a sweet contract. Great. My company now has to compete with that salary to attract pilots. But for me and a lot of pilots the fact that avantair does not have 2500 pilots means I'll take the lower pay. You see, I want to be the skipper. I do NOT want to sling gear for a living. I've done it too long and couldn't imagine having to do it for the better part of a decade at NJ.

My only point in all of this is that I have good reason to go to avantair. It's the upgrade. I see potential. They have a great product. And I believe in Peak Oil and I think that will be the achilles tendon of NJ, CS, FLOPS, FLEX, and the rest, and the saviour of avantair. (Never heard of Peak Oil? Google it.! Enjoy the read!)

I don't need to be told how sub-par my pay, benefits, vacation, etc are. You worry about your worries and I'll worry about mine. Trust me, in 5 years when Jet-A is $25 a gallon and ya'll sending planes to the desert I won't be on this board telling you how much your worth.






Again, that's PEAK OIL. Look it up, we all knew it was coming.

great post once again, i tell you what brother if you were a chick, i'd be licking your toes right now... my hat goes of to you

 

[SCT]

FB3- I agree w/ your post about Glasspilot but you're scaring me on the toe thing.......

Cheers-

 

[Flybet3]

FB3- I agree w/ your post about Glasspilot but you're scaring me on the toe thing.......

Cheers-

HAHAHAHA! Yeah that came out all gay and what not. My bad

 

[fivefootnuthin]

hmm..just read glas's post, still trying to figure out whats so great about it. Peak oil..I suppose this should be the reason why Avantairs pay scale should be always lower than CS or NJ's? I'm getting pretty tired of the "were only in our 3rd year" rationale, especially given the cash i've seen spent on other things, no need to go into details about that. And i guess the 3rd year excuse should also explain why there are too few schedulers, dispatchers, IT people, no Blackberrys for FO's (which is criminal given how email-dependant this company is) etc etc, or why the cowboy mentality thats so entrenched when push comes to shove that it will take a crowbar to pry it out?? Look, I like this place a lot, I do what I can to make things work, and i give credit when credit is due. We have excellent pilots in the pipeline, good guys with good time and skills, and now, finally, the new planes are coming which are desperately needed. But i dont buy for a second the notion that because we're not NJ big that we cant run effeciently or be the best, nor should it mean that we cant be compensated for overcoming seemingly endless scheduling foul ups--pointing out that its not all their fault, given too little training and too many people to move about with too few airplanes to do it with--my point is that we are NOT a start-up any more. We have 25 planes flying, 3 more coming on any time now, and orders for 30 plus more. But until those who run departments and those who supervise those running them wrap their head around the concept that its high time they conducted things in the same manner as the big boys do, we'll never compete with the NJ's and the CS's in this biz, pay-wise or any other way. We sell well because the product in and of itself is good and the price is right, but when the days are too long and the turns are too tight and owners end up late and are frustrated because they cant get answers on the phone, its the crews who keep it together most of the time, doing whatever they can to give the owners the service they bought into. To me that means pay, it means working conditions and rules that are followed EVEN when things get tight, it means safety, it means a lot of things.

Dont get me wrong ...2 yrs ago we WERE a start-up, and we've made great progress, no question. And the pay certainly isnt horrible, at least not for the PICs. But theres clearly a lot of room for improvment, including giving the pilots more of a voice given that the PAC is usually brushed aside when heavy issues come up to bat. The D.O. is a pilot-oriented guy, and I'm certainly glad for that ...but the PAC certainly needs some teeth if its to represent the concerns of the pilot group. These are things that, 3rd year or not, can be addressed ...and should be.
Just my 2 cents

 

[glasspilot]

Well I agree with fivefoot, his post was much better than my peak oil post. I was doing a little "drink and post" the other night. I only brought up peak oil cause I do think it will be to avantairs advantage if and when we start to really feel the screws of it.

FFN is also right that we are not a start up any more. We're are becoming established. My only point is it's still unfair for NJ or UAL or any well established airline to expect us to match or beat their contract when it took years and years for them to get it. (I suspect there is a little bragging involved too.)

Anyway, stay safe, lay off the booze, and take care.

 

[gunfyter]

Also,Its a Pay by Weight world out there. So you have to compare to similar weight airplanes.

 

[fivefootnuthin]

speaking of weights ...any new word about the EMB's? Or is that Tango Uniform now?? If so, I'm bummed ....was lookin forward to those!

 

[Flybet3]

Come On Mbaa!!!!

 

[myrealnameis]

...any new word about the EMB's? Or is that Tango Uniform now?? If so, I'm bummed ....was lookin forward to those!

I wouldn't get my hopes up on that front. I am getting the sense that has all but evaporated, but then again.......

 

[P180puke]

hmm..just read glas's post, still trying to figure out whats so great about it. Peak oil..I suppose this should be the reason why Avantairs pay scale should be always lower than CS or NJ's? I'm getting pretty tired of the "were only in our 3rd year" rationale, especially given the cash i've seen spent on other things, no need to go into details about that. And i guess the 3rd year excuse should also explain why there are too few schedulers, dispatchers, IT people, no Blackberrys for FO's (which is criminal given how email-dependant this company is) etc etc, or why the cowboy mentality thats so entrenched when push comes to shove that it will take a crowbar to pry it out?? Look, I like this place a lot, I do what I can to make things work, and i give credit when credit is due. We have excellent pilots in the pipeline, good guys with good time and skills, and now, finally, the new planes are coming which are desperately needed. But i dont buy for a second the notion that because we're not NJ big that we cant run effeciently or be the best, nor should it mean that we cant be compensated for overcoming seemingly endless scheduling foul ups--pointing out that its not all their fault, given too little training and too many people to move about with too few airplanes to do it with--my point is that we are NOT a start-up any more. We have 25 planes flying, 3 more coming on any time now, and orders for 30 plus more. But until those who run departments and those who supervise those running them wrap their head around the concept that its high time they conducted things in the same manner as the big boys do, we'll never compete with the NJ's and the CS's in this biz, pay-wise or any other way. We sell well because the product in and of itself is good and the price is right, but when the days are too long and the turns are too tight and owners end up late and are frustrated because they cant get answers on the phone, its the crews who keep it together most of the time, doing whatever they can to give the owners the service they bought into. To me that means pay, it means working conditions and rules that are followed EVEN when things get tight, it means safety, it means a lot of things.

Dont get me wrong ...2 yrs ago we WERE a start-up, and we've made great progress, no question. And the pay certainly isnt horrible, at least not for the PICs. But theres clearly a lot of room for improvment, including giving the pilots more of a voice given that the PAC is usually brushed aside when heavy issues come up to bat. The D.O. is a pilot-oriented guy, and I'm certainly glad for that ...but the PAC certainly needs some teeth if its to represent the concerns of the pilot group. These are things that, 3rd year or not, can be addressed ...and should be.
Just my 2 cents

Possibly the most intelligent post I've read in a while. How many times have I said it......improvements have to start from the top. If there's $hit at the top, there's $hit at the bottom. The PAC was nothing but a charade, still is. When's the last time they produced anything to counter concerns?

Thank the product; it's the only reason we still have a j-o-b.

 

[johnsonrod]

Have you guys started training on the Avanti IIs? When are those expected to be on line and flying around the system? I hear that Pro Line 21 is a nice setup....

By the way, what else has been improved in terms of performance and comfort in the Avanti IIs vs. the original?