What is going on at Avantair?

[mainiac]

Can we stop with the childish name calling please?? Take it inside will ya?

Boy, I second the motion!
I really wish that every Avantair thread didn't always degenerate to this. It really makes us look like the Kindergarden playground of the Frac industry.

Play nice, no hitting, take naps... (Always worked with my kids anyway!)

 

[citationsarejun]

I agree. I also am troubled by the commenting that is done with little to no info. I was shocked at the salary structure at Avantair. I was reading this thread and assumed my boys over there were making 30 to 40 grand. When my buddy told me he was making 72 grand I almost fell off my chair. As NJW says the purpose of the board is to get info out there. Lets make it accurate though. Now there is a lot of backtracking like at NJ we get more crew meals. Big deal. It looks like the per diem is higher at Avantair anyway. I know some folks come on here with an agenda maybe they feel they were wronged or have a union agenda but lets not slant the truth. That is not the purpose of this site. Just my two cents

 

[Flybet3]

Ooh, you must be like Bob Hoover!

What an intelligent and mature soul you are. Gee, I had you all wrong this whole time. Please, please will you ever accept my apologies? I guess you really showed me.

Truth hurts don't it? Apparently it infuriates too.

What truth?
you know what, more and more you prove to everyone of what an airhead you are. And more and more you show everyone that you are the FO girl that everyone hates to fly with, your responses are of a typical woman. they make no sense, and all they do is try to attack a man's ego. The only thing that frustrates me is as to why avantair keeps employees like you around. Useless as a pilot and useless as an employee. Go and take care of your "female issues" which is what you always do anyways. :smash:

 

[Flybet3]

I agree. I also am troubled by the commenting that is done with little to no info. I was shocked at the salary structure at Avantair. I was reading this thread and assumed my boys over there were making 30 to 40 grand. When my buddy told me he was making 72 grand I almost fell off my chair. As NJW says the purpose of the board is to get info out there. Lets make it accurate though. Now there is a lot of backtracking like at NJ we get more crew meals. Big deal. It looks like the per diem is higher at Avantair anyway. I know some folks come on here with an agenda maybe they feel they were wronged or have a union agenda but lets not slant the truth. That is not the purpose of this site. Just my two cents

I realize that there is a diffence in pay, and I would a heck of alot more pay! but NJ wife needs to realize that we are also flying a 12000 pound turboprop.
As far as I know, our captains are toping out here alot better than some king air 350 and citation captains. With alot more days off. My only beef here now, is the lack of family benefits and policies on sick days and leave of abcense.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW nobody can argue the fact that a pilot who starts day one at avantair will earn more in year 2,3 and probably 4 than if he worked at netjets. The fact is their pay is comparable. In terms of benefits it does take time to get them in place. They have only been in business 4 years i believe. Hopefully they are working on that issue. It sounds like they are pretty responsive whether it is due to pilots screaming and yelling or not. If you really read P180 posts it is clear that there has been major improvements in a short period of time. He/She wants credit for the change which is fine. I realize they don't have a union and you are against that but they appear to be a good company to work for. As i have said before i Know pilots there and they like it alot.

I don't know about the pay; I didn't see a fair comparison. A NJ pilot can make more on the Reserve and that wasn't listed. The list didn't factor in their holiday pay, OT, 401K, health care, etc. It's a lot more complicated than what was posted here. I also think pilots, especially those with families, are choosing the best long term career option, not just looking at the first few years. I think that is how it should be, and that the choices should be a lot closer than they currently are. All frac families deserve a professional compensation package and balanced schedule.

Please don't assign to me opinions that I don't have. I am not against Avantair pilots being non-union. I'm against the fact that they aren't given a professional compensation package, and I don't buy the excuse that it takes over 4 yrs to provide that. They certainly aren't claiming they can't pay the going rate for fuel for the planes, are they? Labor costs are a fact of being in business. The only reason they get away with under-compensating the pilots is because they are allowed to. There is evidence there that when the pilots stand up to the practice improvements happen. I have publicly and privately shown support for the PAC and I hope they are successful.

I have no doubt that pilots like it there. They obviously like to fly and the frac business offers variety that makes the job interesting and challenging. Likewise, the Avantair pilots that I know also enjoy it there and want to make it a job they can afford to keep. Again, they remind me a lot of where the NJ families, my own included, were last year. I wish them all the best!
NJW

 

[hyper]

Boy, I second the motion!
I really wish that every Avantair thread didn't always degenerate to this. It really makes us look like the Kindergarden playground of the Frac industry.

Play nice, no hitting, take naps... (Always worked with my kids anyway!)

I third.

Flybet3: "What truth?
you know what, more and more you prove to everyone of what an airhead you are. And more and more you show everyone that you are the FO girl that everyone hates to fly with, your responses are of a typical woman. they make no sense, and all they do is try to attack a man's ego. The only thing that frustrates me is as to why avantair keeps employees like you around. Useless as a pilot and useless as an employee. Go and take care of your "female issues" which is what you always do anyways. "

One of the most uncalled for and classless posts I've probably ever read on here. Just my .02 though.

 

[netjetwife]

Now there is a lot of backtracking like at NJ we get more crew meals. Big deal. It looks like the per diem is higher at Avantair anyway. I know some folks come on here with an agenda maybe they feel they were wronged or have a union agenda but lets not slant the truth. That is not the purpose of this site. Just my two cents

I agree wholeheartedly and plan to hold your feet to the fire...

Let's not slant the truth. You're taking a per diem question out of context, and ignoring the much more critical factors that I brought up---health care, 401K, OT, holiday pay, days worked, etc.

I can easily drop the union subject. Let's all just talk about professional compensation for frac pilots and how much progress the industry is making. Where do all of our families stand on health care. Who has coverage, who doesn't? What do the Advisory councils need to help them gain better insurance benefits for the pilots? Same for the 401K? What are your goals?

 

[Flybet3]

I third.

Flybet3: "What truth?
you know what, more and more you prove to everyone of what an airhead you are. And more and more you show everyone that you are the FO girl that everyone hates to fly with, your responses are of a typical woman. they make no sense, and all they do is try to attack a man's ego. The only thing that frustrates me is as to why avantair keeps employees like you around. Useless as a pilot and useless as an employee. Go and take care of your "female issues" which is what you always do anyways. "

One of the most uncalled for and classless posts I've probably ever read on here. Just my .02 though.

Why thank you. Peace out!

 

[netjetwife]

Hyper, I agree. I'm surprised the moderators haven't stepped in. They yanked a cowboy off the board because his mouth was bigger than his boots. I don't recall his posts being that crass. My condolences, Maniac. That said, I think most of us who post here regularly realize that a company and/or pilot group isn't judged by the posts of one or two classless characters.

 

[Smellycat]

Lol

I can easily drop the union subject. Let's all just talk about professional compensation for frac pilots.........

I would love to see that happen, but we all know better.

Your hubby got his professional compensation, so take it and go out shopping. Think of all the TIME you will save if you stop trying to recruit the other frax to your sacred union!

No, you don't want to stop talking about the union topic. That is the only reason you are here. If you truly cared about other pilots and their families, you would cease from posting on this board. This board which is for pilots should be more like the Pilot lounge (crewmembers only) than the wednesday night crochet meeting.

There is a spouses and a union forum here if you just cannot leave it to the Professionals.

 

[C680]

I could easily drop the union subject...when pigs fly.

I would love to see that happen, but we all know better.

Your hubby got his professional compensation, so take it and go out shopping. Think of all the TIME you will save if you stop trying to recruit the other frax to your sacred union!

No, you don't want to stop talking about the union topic. That is the only reason you are here. If you truly cared about other pilots and their families, you would cease from posting on this board. This board which is for pilots should be more like the Pilot lounge (crewmembers only) than the wednesday night crochet meeting.

There is a spouses and a union forum here if you just cannot leave it to the Professionals.

Good points smelly, however... Smellycat has obviously not learned the wrath of the NJwife scorned. Stand by for a nuking.

If you are lucky, smelly, after she turnes you into a flaming hairball she will send you a nice bluemountain sympathy card.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

What truth?
you know what, more and more you prove to everyone of what an airhead you are. And more and more you show everyone that you are the FO girl that everyone hates to fly with, your responses are of a typical woman. they make no sense, and all they do is try to attack a man's ego. The only thing that frustrates me is as to why avantair keeps employees like you around. Useless as a pilot and useless as an employee. Go and take care of your "female issues" which is what you always do anyways. :smash:

Don't want to get into a big thing here, Flybet3, but YOU are an FO too. Don't forget that. Until you're a captain, you're not a captain, so calling someone else an FO makes you the dumbass. And the way your posts deteriorate into name calling, etc. doesn't suggest a professional, it suggests a immature person. Don't take it personal, bud, the first thing a person should be able to do if they can be a captain is take criticism.

 

[citationsarejun]

NJW please the fact is they make more thru at least year 5 and thru a 10 year period they are close. The reason is they upgrade faster. Why continue this salary crusade when it is fact that they get comparable pay. I have no idea what the benefit package is. Do you? I wouldn't comment on it unless I knew I just wish you would do the same. I do not want to get into a personal pissing match but the facts are the facts. You can't change that. Face it you thought the salaries were a lot less than they turned out to be.

 

[fivefootnuthin]

Keep in mind, 72k for 3rd year Captains is for Standards Captains, of which there are 7, out of roughly 50 or so full-time line CA's. For the rest of the PIC's, its 64k after 3. And I hear rumor of some pretty goofy changes to the way those IOE guys will get scheduled are afoot. Just CAN'T help but re-invent the wheel!!

 

[netjetwife]

NJW please the fact is they make more thru at least year 5 and thru a 10 year period they are close. The reason is they upgrade faster. Why continue this salary crusade when it is fact that they get comparable pay. I have no idea what the benefit package is. Do you? I wouldn't comment on it unless I knew I just wish you would do the same.....

Quoting P180--Benefits? Still working on that one. No sickday schedule, no vacation schedule. Pay raises ONLY happened under the umbrella of a union scare. Period. I believe another Avant poster mentioned they didn't get holiday pay. As this echos the impression I've gotten from the Avantair pilots I've met (that the total package is not up to par) I have no reason to doubt P180.

No disrespect intended to blue-collar/hourly wage workers, but professionals compare the total package--not just the base pay. Which was under reported for NJ in the comparison that was posted here, while $72K was only possible for a few. I haven't seen a real comparison--one that could tell a frac family what the best overall compensation package would be. I had already conceded that $72K was higher than I expected, and then when we learned it was for a training capt that explained why. Learning that the compensation package was very, very basic, and sounded more like only a paycheck further explained why the dollar amount was higher than I expected. That good deal just eroded considerably for families that have to buy their own health insurance; for pilots who lose money if they get sick and/or take a much needed vacation....

The reason I'm discussing it is because it frustrates me that professional pilots are being treated like hourly-wage workers who have far less skills. Professionals these days take for granted that benefits are provided. Vacation, sick days, health care and a 401K are considered standard. Bonus, stock options, etc are the extras that many professionals also receive.

I can fully understand that Avant pilots would like the closeness of working in a smaller company, and perhaps the locations of the domicile cities are attractive. Are the required hours lower than the big fracs? I know there will be differences between the fracs, and that one may appeal more than another; however, the jobs are very similar so the pilots/families shouldn't have to sacrifice basics like health care, vacation, 401K, etc just because they chose Avantair. It is not right. Perhaps Avant pilots could further explain their benefits package, or the lack thereof? I certainly want to avoid spreading misinformation and will welcome reports on the situation.

Best of luck to Avantair's PAC!
Netjetwife

 

[citationsarejun]

I am trying to get my friend who works there to post. He says you couldn't be more wrong NJW. Just add up 10 years of pay for both companies. Avantair pilots upgrade after the 1st year. Make your assumption (5 years, 6 years whatever) for Netjet pilots and you will see the pay is comparable if not higher. He also told me they get two weeks vacation, it just can't be taken together and that he has never been denied a sick day. By the way they have a 401K program. The benefits are being worked over now. Sometimes people can do it on their own. Sometimes there is no miscarriage of justice. Sometimes there is no crusade. You have to live with that and move on.

 

[SCT]

Citationarejun,

Who in the H$LL does your friend think he is???? Just because he is an actual pilot, who works for Avantair doesn't mean he can contradict the ALL knowing aviation geru NutJetWife.

Tell him he needs immediate psychological help to counter his delusions about his job satisfaction, pay, benefits and time off.......because NJW says HE is wrong. I prescribe a little Prozac, 19 straight hrs of reading NJW posts, and a few electronic "inspirational" greeting cards to make sure he is totally dedicated to NJW and her union drive.

A rising tide of crap makes a boat stink......

SCT

 

[corpflunkie]

NJW,

Regarding Avantair

1. We do have health insurance. Next month we are to have open
enrollment on a better plan according to the COO.

2. We do have a 401k, however it needs to be improved quite a bit.

3. Every Federal holiday I've worked, I have been paid a day's OT.

3. No official sick policy yet, but I haven't heard of anyone being
denied or not paid unless they were abusing it.

4. Comparing 10yr total earnings, we are right there with you because
of our faster upgrade. You cannot use the flex schedule in your
comparison since the majority of NJ pilots don't work it.
However, if you want to get technical, we essentially work one
extra day each week until our 7&7 goes into effect. So you can
wave your flag on that one. Also, you can only compare to the pay
of NJ's small class ac.

I will admit that after 10 yrs. NetJet pilots do run away from us in total earnings.

 

[jonjuan]

It's NJWs purpose to make sure all of the fractional's are unionized in order to drive the smaller companies out of business. A non-unionized workforce at a competitive organzation directly threatens the stabilty of her husbands company.

 

[netjetwife]

As I had explained, my impression was based on P180's posts--

"But provide reasonable insurance for my family, a vacation and sick day policy, 7 and 7 schedule and maybe a 401k of sorts to help me save for my kids' futures like every other respectable firm, and I'll be impressed. I'll help ya beat your chest. So far, history has proven words are just words".

So there is insurance, but it's inadequate in p180's opinion? Shall we just say that it's like the NJ FO pay--needs improvement? The lack of a vacation and sick day policy is easily misconstrued; are you saying that you get it but it isn't written policy? You must admit that's strange. Those things are typically stated in writing for all to understand and make sure that the policy is evenly applied. The PAC should have no problem getting the company to guarantee the benefit in writing. If management refuses that should raise some eyebrows. I'm confused about the 401K. Perhaps P180 meant that there's no matching funds from the company. If Avantair doesn't add anything to the 401K then the benefit as it is known to other professionals isn't there. What exactly do you have?

Yes, you have to use the flex/reserve schedule because it is definitely the higher paying schedule and gives NJ pilots the opportunity to make more money. The goal is for your PAC to use the highest pay scale in the frac industry to present to your company as justification for raising your own wages. When the highest becomes the average then all the frac pilots have stepped up and we can keep pulling up the compensation package to where it should be for all frac families.

I sincerely wish you guys could get over your animosity and egos and understand that I am only trying to get a clear understanding of how pilots fare across the frac industry. I want us to look together at where the pilots are doing well--getting 7&7 for those who want it--and where they could work together to make improvements for all the frac families. During the NJ contact battle my husband served on the research committee, so I know how important it is to be able to point to other standards and benchmark comparisons. He used the NBAA figures because the frac averages were too low. The next battleground for NJ pilots will be the FO wages. The faster upgrades at the other fracs should be used to justify a substantial increase in FO wages at NJ. I am pleased for those pilots that are upgrading quickly, but personally believe that the FO wages should be fair for a professional pilot in the event that upgrades slow and pilots are stuck at FO wages for a long time.

Comparisons are only helpful when we can all calmly look at exactly where the pilots stand and see that helping each other to raise the bar should be the real goal. Every group should use the strongest numbers (wherever they find it in the industry) and the best means available to present their case, be that PAC or union. And they should certainly stand together and help one another.
NJW