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What has ALPA done for me lately?

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ualdriver

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2003
Posts
1,400
This is one example where having a national Union, with influence in the halls of Congress, is good for ALL pilots.


ALPA: New fatigue rules, safety reporting 'protection' necessary

Tuesday February 3, 2009 The Air Line Pilots Assn. asked for US FAA to develop more stringent flight- and duty-time rules to prevent pilot fatigue and called on Congress to pass legislation protecting pilots who report safety concerns.
The world's largest pilots' union, comprising 53,000 members in North America, outlined its 2009 agenda at a Washington briefing yesterday, claiming that the US regulatory and legal framework regarding pilots is weak and open to disparate interpretations. It also warned that freighter aircraft are vulnerable to hijackings.
Citing a recent ALPA poll that found 63% of its members had flown fatigued or with a fatigued copilot in the preceding four months, President John Prater said current flight- and duty-time regulations are "a patchwork of rules developed decades ago before the age of jet airliners" and pushed for a "complete overhaul" of rules that he said should be based on a yet-to-be-funded government-sponsored study that would determine scientifically a single, across-the-board standard.
Such a rules modification "is going to require a strong FAA administrator who is willing to regulate rather than reach a consensus with all parties," he said. He criticized a lawsuit filed in December by seven US airlines to prevent FAA from implementing proposed new regulations aimed at reducing pilot fatigue.
ALPA further stated that Congress needs to "step in" to legislate "protection" for pilots in "voluntary, nonpunitive safety reporting systems" to ensure that such programs are continued by airlines and not used by carriers against pilots. The union also said that nonpilots with access to freighter aircraft, which do not have the same hardened cockpit door requirements as passenger aircraft, "are not vetted or screened to the level we would like to see," creating too high a possibility that cargo planes could be used as "guided missiles" in a 9/11-style attack.
Prater said Congress needs to pass FAA reauthorization legislation that adequately funds an agency that has a variety of responsibilities. "To this point our government has failed to invest in the aviation infrastructure to the level that is needed," he said. He also called on President Barack Obama to appoint an FAA administrator that "understands the industry. . .There are a lot of different parts to what FAA does. We need an administrator that understands that wide breadth."
 
The true test will be if they can actually get it done. ALPA is great about "asking" or talking about "taking it back", but actually doing something is something totally different. Laying out out what we would like to happen is the easy part. I hope they can, but past performance may indicates it will be a tough battle and our win/loss doesn't look all that good.
 
Sounds like a bunch of lobbiest. No real power. Lots of fluff.

Good luck.

M
 
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]In 1990, for example, ALPA petitioned FAA to amend various sections of the rules. Specifically, the Association wanted FAA to amend FAR Parts 121.471 and 135.265 based on scientific knowledge then available.
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]No change[/FONT]


[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Then, on June 15, 1992, FAA announced that it was establishing a flight crewmember flight/duty rest requirements working group, the ARAC Flight/Duty Working Group. Between that Working Group’s creation in 1992 and June 1994, it met regularly.
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No change


[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]FAA hoped that the Working Group would resolve the numerous differences among its members and provide a unified recommendation so that an NPRM would meet approval once introduced. So intransigent was the position of factions within the Working Group that its final report, provided to FAA in June 1994, came to no unified conclusion.[/FONT]



[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]FAA’s current NPRM is loosely based on a 1995 NASA Technical Memorandum, "Principles and Guidelines for Duty and Rest Scheduling in Commer-cial Aviation." This was the first NASA document that focuses specifically on operational considerations.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]FAA claims that "while not every NASA finding or recommendation is specifically reflected in this proposal, the overall thrust of this proposal is consistent with those findings and recommendations."[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]A careful examination of both documents reveals that the scientific principles of the NASA document are not fully implemented in the proposed flight and duty time regulations.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]NASA intends to publish a second document in the first quarter of 1996. It should provide the specific scientific references that support the principles and guidelines outlined in the first document. The second document will be longer and focus on the scientific considerations related to these issues.
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]No change[/FONT]




[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]As this article is written, ALPA is deliberating the issues and preparing final comments on the NPRM.
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[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Air Line Pilot,[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica] February 1996, page 19[/FONT]
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ALPA is the very definition of a paper tiger.[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]
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Really ???? Just wait until you see USAPA in action. Now there's a real paper tiger for ya', don't 'cha know ??? Right, Marty ???

PHXFLYR
 
Really ???? Just wait until you see USAPA in action. Now there's a real paper tiger for ya', don't 'cha know ??? Right, Marty ???

PHXFLYR

Really? You guys keep insisting that USAPA somehow isn't a real union, but that's not the impression many are getting. Consider these quotes from American Airlines pilot Susan O'Donnell, who was a jumpseater on Flight 1549:

The USAPA representative was on the scene very quickly, and again included the other jumpseat rider and myself with the rest of the crew. I didn't see a flight attendant representative; USAPA took care of the FAs as well. The USAPA representative escorted the entire crew to the hospital (we rode in a NYFD fire truck), where we were joined by other USAPA reps and the USAPA lawyer, all of whom continued to consider me as one of the crew........ The USAPA version of our Flight Assist was also there, and they spoke to me and offered me whatever assistance I needed, again as if I was one of their own. The USAPA reps also brought all of us some clothing and toiletries that they had purchased. ........., and I am grateful for and proud of the response and assistance of both USAPA and APA. I would hope that our union would treat another airline's crewmember as kindly as I was treated.



There is lots of other evidence that USAPA is representing pilots and doing what needs to be done, but convincing the FI.com crowd of anything like this would be like getting 3rd graders to eat broccoli. Results at the table? Of course, these things take time and it's a very complicated environment, but all the bad mouthing from the west about USAPA somehow being less than a real union is nothing more than childish blather.
 
labbats said it. will believe it when obama signs a bill or a new reg is signed by the new FAA commish.
 
The true test will be if they can actually get it done.

Not picking on you, but the true test will be if WE can actually get it done. ALPA is not some third party, it is what the membership makes of it, it is the membership. ALPA-PAC support needs to rise. Less than a third of ALPA pilots routinely contribute to ALPA-PAC. ALPA pilots need to step up to the plate and participate in their union if they want change.
 
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The title of the thread what has ALPA done for me lately. You guys can bash ALPA all you want, and perhaps every one of you are right, maybe they won't be politically successful in any of these endeavors. Maybe they'll get some and not all. But for all the ALPA bashers......

What is USAPA doing concerning these issues? Teamsters? How about the Virgin America pilots? Allegiant pilots? JetBlue pilots? Anyone? What other organization is even trying at a national level to better the profession?

I'm just posting what ALPA is at least trying to do on our behalf. We'll just have to wait and see what comes of it.

Got this today:
At the invitation of President Obama and Vice President Biden, Prater was also selected as one of a handful of union leaders invited to the East Room of the White House for an additional private meeting, along with the officers and other Executive Council members of the AFL-CIO, the presidents of the NEA and NTEU, and the officers and presidents of Change to Win.

President Obama told the group that he “would not be here” without the support of unions. He was also frank about the realistic timeline that it would take to fix the economy, but said that he is committed to creating jobs and helping working Americans.
“I do not view the labor movement as part of the problem; to me, and to my administration, labor unions are a big part of the solution,” President Obama said during the discussion.

In a private 45-minute meeting with the president and vice president conducted in the Blue Room, a handful of union presidents, of which Prater was one, were given the opportunity to discuss ways to improve the current system. They were briefed on the newly created White House Middle Class Task Force. The administration describes this as a major initiative targeted at raising the living standards of middle-class, working families in America. It is comprised of top-level administration policy makers. In addition to regular meetings, it will conduct outreach sessions with representatives of labor, business, and the advocacy communities, and ALPA will be right in the mix.


ALPA certainly has its faults, but its nice when your Union leader has the ear of the President, even if it's just for a short time......
 
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What is USAPA doing concerning these issues? Teamsters? How about the Virgin America pilots? Allegiant pilots? JetBlue pilots? Anyone? What other organization is even trying?

Excellent point.

I'm just posting what ALPA is at least trying to do on our behalf. We'll just have to wait and see what comes of it.

I appreciate ALPA's efforts. Hopefully the membership will seize the opportunity presented in the coming years and make a difference in reforming the bankruptcy laws, the Railway Labor Act, fight cabotage and have meaningful input into any open skies agreements by supporting ALPA-PAC.
 
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I appreciate ALPA's efforts. Hopefully the membership will seize the opportunity presented in the coming years and make a difference in reforming the bankruptcy laws, the Railway Labor Act, fight cabotage and have meaningful input into any open skies agreements by supporting ALPA-PAC.

My "you guys" comment wasn't directed at you :)
 
You know..if the airlines really cared about its pilots and the pilot unions had even the littlest of sacks, they would put min rest into their contracts.

But neither will happen......

But I know of one company (union represented) that does have more than min rest built in...
 
Plenty of ALPA carriers have more than min rest built into their agreements.
 
ALPA's motto should just be "Taking it...and not giving back."


Of course, you measure ALPA in terms of what kind of deal you got.. your wallet and bank account....

And of course that matters....

However, your yardstick is to expect ALPA to be an individual bargaining agent for your interest, when in reality ALPA negotiates via the profession for collective bargaining interests...


IOW, your expectations are incorrect....
 
Got this today:
At the invitation of President Obama and Vice President Biden, Prater was also selected as one of a handful of union leaders invited to the East Room of the White House for an additional private meeting, along with the officers and other Executive Council members of the AFL-CIO, the presidents of the NEA and NTEU, and the officers and presidents of Change to Win.

President Obama told the group that he “would not be here” without the support of unions. He was also frank about the realistic timeline that it would take to fix the economy, but said that he is committed to creating jobs and helping working Americans.
“I do not view the labor movement as part of the problem; to me, and to my administration, labor unions are a big part of the solution,” President Obama said during the discussion.

In a private 45-minute meeting with the president and vice president conducted in the Blue Room, a handful of union presidents,of which Prater was one, were given the opportunity to discuss ways to improve the current system. They were briefed on the newly created White House Middle Class Task Force. The administration describes this as a major initiative targeted at raising the living standards of middle-class, working families in America. It is comprised of top-level administration policy makers. In addition to regular meetings, it will conduct outreach sessions with representatives of labor, business, and the advocacy communities, and ALPA will be right in the mix.


ALPA certainly has its faults, but its nice when your Union leader has the ear of the President, even if it's just for a short time......



Funny I didn't see USAPA's appointed Grand pooh bah Scabford er,un I mean Bradford's name on the a- list of invitees to the White House discussion with Obama. What's up with that? Over to you,Marty..:rolleyes:

PHXFLYR
 
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Of course, you measure ALPA in terms of what kind of deal you got.. your wallet and bank account....

And of course that matters....

However, your yardstick is to expect ALPA to be an individual bargaining agent for your interest, when in reality ALPA negotiates via the profession for collective bargaining interests...


IOW, your expectations are incorrect....

Typical ALPA line...man you are mainlining ALPA kool-aide. Have you ever heard the term "Lemming"?

Either way...they have FAILED. As far was what I expected, I paid them plenty to represent my personal and professional interest and on multiple occasions they failed. I paid for representation as an individual and a pilot..and got neither.

Is it not the role of ALPA to represent its membership at disciplinary hearings? Or should they stay home and install a fence instead...true story...or not even return your calls. Is it the role of ALPA reps to play golf with management on the unions dime...and FPL?
 
Really? ........................ USAPA somehow being less than a real union is nothing more than childish blather.



Then why wasn't your fair-haired boy Bradford or any of your fellow goons invited to the White House meeting with Obama, Biden and the other labor leaders mentioned in the post above while Prater and Alpa were ?? Until USAPA has that same political clout, I will continue to view them as nothing more than a bunch of thugs masquadering as a pilot's "union"

PHXFLYR
 
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Is it not the role of ALPA to represent its membership at disciplinary hearings? Or should they stay home and install a fence instead...true story...or not even return your calls. Is it the role of ALPA reps to play golf with management on the unions dime...and FPL?

Man, that sucks.

Actually, though, that is the role of A PERSON, elected by your pilot group. If this happened, you need to get rid of that person. Kind of like blaming America because you have an incompetent Congressman.
 
Flying is as safe as it is in no small part due to ALPA.
The list of what it has accomplished to the benefit of ALL pilots is far to long to list.
Right wrong or indifferent, since deregulation our profession has been under attack by the "free market" We have had to compete to survive. It's not ALPA's fault that every pilot isn't happy with his own personal situation. Near as I can tell, the ALPA bashers base their discontent on their own situation and not the big picture.
In my mind it wasn't ALPA that got the downward pressure on wages ball rolling. It was American when they opened the B-scale pandoras box. They originally agreed to a 50% pay cut for all new hires if the company would undertake a massive expansion aimed at undermining ALPA carriers and competing with upstart (non ALPA) carriers. It was UAL that struck against the b-scale and now it's mostly a thing of the past, thanks in no small part to their strike in 1986.
I am not meaning to bash APA, it's called competition and for better or worse, it's the American way. Much of what our country has accomplished is due to competition, but it does have it's victims. ALPA has done it's best to try and protect the profession as best it could.
 
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Typical ALPA line...man you are mainlining ALPA kool-aide. Have you ever heard the term "Lemming"?

Either way...they have FAILED. As far was what I expected, I paid them plenty to represent my personal and professional interest and on multiple occasions they failed. I paid for representation as an individual and a pilot..and got neither.

Is it not the role of ALPA to represent its membership at disciplinary hearings? Or should they stay home and install a fence instead...true story...or not even return your calls. Is it the role of ALPA reps to play golf with management on the unions dime...and FPL?


If you needed representation "multiple times" perhaps the problem lies with you and not ALPA? They can only do so much.
 
If you needed representation "multiple times" perhaps the problem lies with you and not ALPA? They can only do so much.

You need an education and you will get it...now. Representation does not simply mean disciplinary hearings (there was one)...how about grievance hearings? Like when your company f*ucks you while you have a wife and kid (both nearly died) in the hospital and ALPA is more excited about using your case as "The poster child" for why we need a certain provision in the contract. Not "Hey..how are things going? Is there anything we can do for you." Instead, "Hey, can you come down to XYZ and testify at this hearing about your problems and we can use that to help our case. Next week would be great. (Wife and kid STILL in hospital). Just JS down..ok?" Huh...no...and you can go straight to hell.

Or the fact that military members are not allowed to vote on ALPA related elections while called to active duty because we are treated like we "might as well be furloughed". "You are not paying dues so your interest cannot be represented." (ALPA National words)

Or the DB that had the nuts to call me out for not having a pin on and then told me this "You are either part of us or not...which is it." Because of a F'ing pin? I asked him where is American Flag pin was (two weeks post 9/11)..and told him "You are either with us or agaisnt us.." He just walked away.

I wore an ALPA pin on my flight suit on over 50 missions in Iraq and what did ALPA do for me when I got home...sent me a bill for dues that they thought I owed. That was the ONLY, the ONLY thing I got from ALPA in over a year on military leave.

So you ALPA cheerleaders can have your corrupt, inept, impotent, self serving union. You can use all the excuses you want. ALPA's primary responsibility is to protect its members and enhance their quality of life...as a whole and as individuals. You keep saying ALPA IS its members but when someone says "what has ALPA done for me" you whine about "it is about the greater good..its not about you." But I thought I WAS ALPA...

I paid thousands of dollars for a shiney magazine. I assume you ALPA drones sit by the mailbox and wait for that piece toilet paper to show and then hang on every word of your messiah John Prater who has done what so many like him have done in the past all over the world..led you straight down a path of destruction. And you guys are screaming "wheeeeeeee wheeeeee" all the way.

Wake up girls.....
 
Maybe you"re just better suited for military aviation rather than the civilian sector. I've noticed most (not all,but most) military aviators like yourself loath ALPA. Never could figure out why. And somehow I don't think that changes much across party lines. I live in a town which has a pretty big military presence. Have quite a few friends who are current and former military aviators flying for airlines represented by ALPA,APA,IAP, Teamsters aviation division and even that low life outfit USAPA. They feel just the same towards their union as you do yours. Maybe you just enjoyed military aviation more than your realized when you were in and didn't recogonize it at the time, no? If so,can you re-enlist? After all you got to do what your most happiest doing? Life's to short to be so angry. Anyway, here's hoping hoping your wife and kid are doing well.

PHXFLYR
 
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You need an education and you will get it...now. Representation does not simply mean disciplinary hearings (there was one)...how about grievance hearings? Like when your company f*ucks you while you have a wife and kid (both nearly died) in the hospital and ALPA is more excited about using your case as "The poster child" for why we need a certain provision in the contract. Not "Hey..how are things going? Is there anything we can do for you." Instead, "Hey, can you come down to XYZ and testify at this hearing about your problems and we can use that to help our case. Next week would be great. (Wife and kid STILL in hospital). Just JS down..ok?" Huh...no...and you can go straight to hell.

Or the fact that military members are not allowed to vote on ALPA related elections while called to active duty because we are treated like we "might as well be furloughed". "You are not paying dues so your interest cannot be represented." (ALPA National words)

Or the DB that had the nuts to call me out for not having a pin on and then told me this "You are either part of us or not...which is it." Because of a F'ing pin? I asked him where is American Flag pin was (two weeks post 9/11)..and told him "You are either with us or agaisnt us.." He just walked away.

I wore an ALPA pin on my flight suit on over 50 missions in Iraq and what did ALPA do for me when I got home...sent me a bill for dues that they thought I owed. That was the ONLY, the ONLY thing I got from ALPA in over a year on military leave.

So you ALPA cheerleaders can have your corrupt, inept, impotent, self serving union. You can use all the excuses you want. ALPA's primary responsibility is to protect its members and enhance their quality of life...as a whole and as individuals. You keep saying ALPA IS its members but when someone says "what has ALPA done for me" you whine about "it is about the greater good..its not about you." But I thought I WAS ALPA...

I paid thousands of dollars for a shiney magazine. I assume you ALPA drones sit by the mailbox and wait for that piece toilet paper to show and then hang on every word of your messiah John Prater who has done what so many like him have done in the past all over the world..led you straight down a path of destruction. And you guys are screaming "wheeeeeeee wheeeeee" all the way.

Wake up girls.....


First off, sorry about the family. I hope they are OK now and whatever happened is 100% behind them.
Family is way more important than any career, unfortunatly we need a career to take care of them.
I'm also sorry you had a bad experience with your representation. The fact is in circumstances like this is usually when ALPA really shines. Their are 1000's of pilots and pilots families that have benefited immensely from ALPA's support during times like what happened to you. It's an area that ALPA shines in. It would be a mistake to characterize ALPA by your incident. It certainly isn't the norm.
Anyway, I care more about your family than proving you right or wrong. Hope they are OK.
 

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