What happened to our "profession"???

[ksu_aviator]

Wait, do you live in the United States? Dropping in the past 6 months after a 6 year run up were in the past two years alone prices have doubled in many markets.




Please don't take this at all wrong, but do you live in a double wide? $55/foot inclusive of land is impossible even in this down market. I made my living in real estate development over the past 3 years and i've done well. most of my investments were in the SW and California, band even in the least expensive parts of Arizona, a home 2 years ago was about $110/foot.. 5 years before, that same home was about $70/foot and today it's closer to $150.. PRICES ARE DROPPING, but it's an adjustment where the excess supply is being absorbed, but they're not dropping like you seem to infer.

Actually, I live in a $3,000 sqft 4 br, 2 1/2 bath with 2 car garage in a very good school district. And you are right I didn't pay $55/sqft. I don't know what I was thinking, I paid $51/sqft, 1 year ago.

Are you pricing the same exact truck? I doubt it.. the WSJ did an article on car prices last year and the average price increase on most cars has been abut 7-8% per year since 1990.

2 to 3 years ago you could not buy any full size truck, no matter how stripped down it was, for less than $28,000 (if memory serves me correctly).

That figure is bogus (not calling you a lair, but the govt that puts it out). Inflation figures are a poor indicator of costs.. First and foremost, they don't include the price of housing, and they don't include the cost of energy.

If you included the cost of energy, than energy would be accounted for twice and the number would be skewed. All products account for energy costs in their pricing. When the cost of energy goes up, the cost of products goes up. If energy was in the equation, energy prices would have a disproportianate effect on the CPI.

Housing, on the other hand, is included in the calculation of the CPI.

The prices of hundreds of goods and services are surveyed each month. The goods and services are organized into eight main groups: food and beverage, housing, apparel, transportation, medical care, recreation, education and communication, and other goods and services.

http://www.answers.com/topic/consumer-price-index

Any how, enough with the pissing contest. The point I was trying to make before is that we have to use real, accepted numbers to recalculate our worth as pilots. When it comes right down to the brass tax of it all, wages are just as dependent on supply and demand as the rest of the economy. As with the rest of the economy, quality demands a higher price. It is the quality aspect that unions should be pushing as the number one reason to pay pilots well.

You can hire a pilot for $17,000 a year, and there are pilots out there willing to accept that job. However, they will not have the same experience and expertise as a pilot that would apply if the employer where to pay $100,000 a year. You have to convince the employer that with out highly competitive pay, the airline (or other operator) will not thrive with the low skilled labor that is attracted by the lower wages.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Found an article talking about 04 trucks, the average price then was

and new trucks at $27,621—each up 0.5 percent from May 2003.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004046

So you could have probably bought the stripped down version for less, but I seriously doubt it would have been $16,000. Sixteen is approaching half price.

 

[satpak77]

Do you have any idea how much those people make?

I don't get it, you're a pilot (we assume) and yet you have no understanding of your self worth.. Like i said, lost cause.

Net worth or Self Worth?

I and my family decide my "self worth", my excel speadsheet with my assets on it (or lack of) determine net worth.

And yes, I actually am a pilot, thanks.

Keep drinking the Kit Darby cool aid tho, his last 1994 Airline Pilot Career Guide I think estimates your "career earnings" at a Big 3 to be 5 Million+

Hope you aren't still using his books as guidance. Its 2007 now by the way, and this ain't your grandpa's airline career anymore.

 

[pilotyip]

It very difficult to hire at pilot at $17K per year. That is below almost every one of entry level jobs. And even those jobs that pay above that level are having trouble finding anyone to apply. We start at $35K and we are having trouble keeping our pool filled.

 

[time builder]

Airline competition is one thing, if they can't make money, they'll go out of business. The strong survive, yadayadayada..... whether our companies are making money or not isn't the issue, they'll fork it out if they have to in order to keep operating or face going out of business, just like they're doing for fuel. The point is that they don't have to pay much to be competitive for pilots right now.

The issue is supply and demand. In the past few years, there's been a lot of pilots looking for jobs, and willing to take lower salaries just to keep flying. The recession after 9-11 was hard, and management gained some arm twisting power to drive down wages.

Now its a harder sell to get a kid to pay $80,000 for a job that has wages spiraling downward (not to mention the disputed skill required), and the military isn't pumping out pilots like they used to. As a result, there's a "pilot shortage," airlines are "desparate."

So desparate that they'll raise wages? I think not, at least not right now. Instead, they'll lower minimums first. As long as they can convince pilots that there's someone to replace us, and that "anyone can do your job," or "you should be happy to be getting paid for doing what you love," or even "you're getting the time to work toward something better," the ball is in their court.

That's not the only way to swing supply and demand in their favor. Lo and behold, airlines are talking about consolidation now. Replacing RJ's with a smaller number of mainlines. It will "save them money," they say. It sure will, but not only that, it also takes fewer qualified pilots, and they have a supply of qualified pilots from the RJ craze of these past years to utilize.

Eventually, something's gotta give, and wages will improve. But it won't be until supply and demand is working in our favor.

 

[PositionandHold]

Why should pilots lives like Doc's and Lawyers? There is no comparison, Doctors are knowledge workers, and pilots are skilled workers. Doctors go to school for up to 20 years, work for slave wages until established in practice. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot, no high school diploma, no college BS degree required, no MD in Medicine like a doctor, just go to a trade school and develop a skill. Pilots unlike Doctors, CPA's and Engineers have no unique abilities that allow them to change jobs and be paid close to their last job.

Half of my relatives are doctors, and none of them went to school after college for 20 years. Further, they didn't work for slave wages, either, for any period of time. One of my former students was a resident, first year, making 48K. You know why? The residents were unionized. normally it's closer to mid 30's your first year. And that's nothing like the 20K you'll make at a regional your first few years. Pilotyip, you have to research this stuff before you go off on it.

If you want to be extremely rich, get out of flying and get into the U of M or Harvard MBA programs, then you can live with the Doc's and Lawyers.

I did go to U of M, and I did graduate with three years of honors there. And you know what else, it was necessary because yes you do need a 4 year degree to have any kind of future in this biz, so we should be paid on par with highly educated and skilled professionals. I consider Doctors skilled professionals...lawyers, too. Brick layers? Give me a break. Not every pilot went to Embry Riddle online. I went to school with 2 other guys in Ann Arbor who were working on a professional pilot career, and who knows how many others. I also know of a Legacy Captain who went to Dartmouth and got an MBA from Haas (Berkeley). That said, I also know guys who could not for the life of them get their instrument rating, despite several instructors. They just didn't have it. And they were sharp guys. Just couldn't fly an ILS to save their a.ss. It's all about how you look at it.

You can teach anyone to litigate and perform hand surgery. Just like you could teach anyone to fly an airplane given enough time. It's the experience that dictates how much we should be paid. But now, experience is worth less and less, and it shouldn't be.

Maybe you could spend more time on NBA or NFL boards telling pro-athletes the same thing when they complain about how they got screwed and only got $8 Million this year for playing ball. And I'm willing to bet they didn't graduate from UofM or Harvard MBA programs. It shouldn't be a prerequisite to being paid well, or even fairly.

If you think all pilots are making six figures, you're living under a rock. I know guys who've been at majors for years and years who are not making six figures. And the ones who are, I don't know why it should burn your blood. The airlines didn't fold because Captain X, a 30 year 747 Captain at United was making $300,000 for a couple of years. They went bankrupt because they ran out of excuses and their incompetence began to show. Management's only job is to make more money for themselves. For the executive, F*ck the company, it's all about "me" and how big a bonus I can take home after "saving" the company by f*cking over my employees.

Hey you know what, I could have even done a better job at saving United. All I had to do was pay every employee minimum wage and the profits would soar in. I'm a genius! I've figured it out!

 

[pilotyip]

Positionandhold 20 years heres how I came up with the number; grade K-12=13 yrs, undergrad =4 years, Med. school =3 years, 13+4+3 = 20 years. Never said everyone makes 100K, I just think 100K is good pay and it is obtainable flying an airplane, although in 40 years I have never seen it.

 

[PositionandHold]

Positionandhold 20 years heres how I came up with the number; grade K-12=13 yrs, undergrad =4 years, Med. school =3 years, 13+4+3 = 20 years. Never said everyone makes 100K, I just think 100K is good pay and it is obtainable flying an airplane, although in 40 years I have never seen it.

OK I'll bite: Here's my breakdown, and the breakdown of pretty much most non-military airline pilots.

K-12=13 Yrs, Undergrad=4 years, the combined amount of time it took to train from 0-ATP standards + qualify for an airline, while attending high school and college full time (for many of us) -- 5-7 years. Flight training and time building is also an education, and yeah, it costs money, too.

So, for me, I went through 23 years of education. So that part of your argument doesn't hold up. According to your logic, I've had more education than a doctor, and thus, should make more than one.

Law school would have been a lot easier, btw. I could have graduated, gone to only 3 years law school and gotten a 100K a year job right after graduation, like most of my friends in college did.

They busted their balls for 2 out of the 3 years, and are now making upwards of 100K in their mid twenties, doing corporate B.S. paperwork and drafting letters... Something you and I could do with enough training. If tomorrow, the major firms decided to cut pay in half a-la United Airlines and Delta, NWA, USAir, and American, because "costs rose", you better believe there'd be hell to pay, from the guys who went from $400K a year to $200K.

And all you'd say is "anything over 100K is comfortable."

Tell that to Glen Tilton and his $45,000,000 bonus.

I'm not working on an airline career because I want to be rich. I'm working on an airline career because I enjoy flying airplanes, and I want to do that for a living. But if I'm making a career out of it, you better believe I'm going to do it for as much as I'm worth (not just what I want), and nothing less.

 

[pilotyip]

Worth?

Posit&hold; You were not getting an education, you were developing a skill, a pilot is a skilled worker, no formal education is required, only gov't certificates. Really any one with a certain level or skill or desire can become a pilot. A Doctor is knowledge worker, with a formal education requirement, you might be able to be a Doctor, but not everyone can become a doctor. If you want to be a lawyer, go to Law School, but you elected to be a pilot, do not compare yourself with other people career choices. Enjoy being one of luckiest guys in the world, if you are truly doing something you love, your lawyer friends are jealous of you. Every day guys quit their office jobs to become pilots because it beats the heck out of the cube. "Fly because you like, you know the rest (tag line). BTW the market determines your worth.

 

[PositionandHold]

Posit&hold; You were not getting an education, you were developing a skill, a pilot is a skilled worker, no formal education is required, only gov't certificates. Really any one with a certain level or skill or desire can become a pilot. A Doctor is knowledge worker, with a formal education requirement, you might be able to be a Doctor, but not everyone can become a doctor. If you want to be a lawyer, go to Law School, but you elected to be a pilot, do not compare yourself with other people career choices. Enjoy being one of luckiest guys in the world, if you are truly doing something you love, your lawyer friends are jealous of you. Every day guys quit their office jobs to become pilots because it beats the heck out of the cube. "Fly because you like, you know the rest (tag line). BTW the market determines your worth.

I'm not going to continue trying to justify to you why I think there has been a huge injustice done to the professional pilot group in the past 5-6 years. I shouldn't have to. And just because you have gone through certain hardships (we all do) doesn't really give you the authority to tell people what they should be happy with. That kind of commenting is subjective, and completely relative to your situation.

You're right when you said in your message that 100K is good money. It is. But not when the same people making 100K now were making 200K before, even after the cost of living has risen. In this case, that is not good money. It is not enough money to keep up with house payments, send your kids to college, etc etc. It's great money for someone whose never made that kind of money before. But that's just my opinion.

 

[HA25]

Posit&hold; You were not getting an education, you were developing a skill, a pilot is a skilled worker, no formal education is required, only gov't certificates.

You really need some help man.. you keep drinking that ATA generated Koolaid..

Me, I consider the 2 months of 8+ hours a day training, reading, and studying for one of my 4 Type ratings on the MD-11 equal or more work than a whole semester of U in my major "Finance".. All crammed into 2 months.

Call it what you want.. it's "education"

 

[Scrapdog]

You can teach anyone to litigate and perform hand surgery. Just like you could teach anyone to fly an airplane given enough time. It's the experience that dictates how much we should be paid. But now, experience is worth less and less, and it shouldn't be.

Jesus yip, get a clue!!!!!!!! Remove the crust from your eyes for god's sakes. Teach anyone to perform hand surgery? Are you f**king kidding me? Surgeons (and especially specilialists like plastic/cardivascular, etc..) are so skilled it's beyond belief. By all accounts, you CAN NOT teach everyone to be a surgeon, much less a specialist like a hand surgeon. Many, many folks drop out of surgery residency and go on to easier residencies everyday. And before you tell me that's not true...I have multiple family members in the medical profession in different facets.

Now flying an ILS (as you stated) is retardedly easy. A baboon can shoot an ILS. Comparing shooting an ILS and hand surgery is not even in the funny category, it's just ignorant.

Yip - wake up, it's 2007 dude. I realize in your hay day in 1965 you didn't need a degree. Today, you do.

 

[PositionandHold]

Actually, that was me. Not Yip.

And I think you missed the overall point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't quite being as literal as you've taken it.

 

[Scrapdog]

Actually, that was me. Not Yip.

And I think you missed the overall point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't quite being as literal as you've taken it.

Wow, I guess I did - so, exactly what are you trying to say? 100K in today's world is not good money - as a matter of fact, it's marginal at best, especially if your spouse can't work (as most airline folks with kids can't). A family of 4 on 100K is very average.

And Yip - I sincerely apologize...my bad.

 

[Scrapdog]

Actually, that was me. Not Yip.

And I think you missed the overall point of what I was trying to say. I wasn't quite being as literal as you've taken it.

deleted - multiple post

 

[PositionandHold]

Wow, I guess I did - so, exactly what are you trying to say? 100K in today's world is not good money - as a matter of fact, it's marginal at best, especially if your spouse can't work (as most airline folks with kids can't). A family of 4 on 100K is very average.

And Yip - I sincerely apologize...my bad.

Um.. re-read my posts, dude. I am not disagreeing with you. I agree with you 100%. I think you need to start from the top of the discussion, because you're mixing everything up. Or just read more carefully.

 

[pilotyip]

100K is good money in the US. 86K in upper 20%, 115K is upper 15%, 151K is upper 5%, Dept of Labour figures 2004 latest I could find. I have never made 100K in my life. So my view of the world may be different, you all welcome to your views, that is the American way, I am happy with mine.

 

[HA25]

100K is good money in the US. 86K in upper 20%, 115K is upper 15%, 151K is upper 5%, Dept of Labour figures 2004 latest I could find. I have never made 100K in my life. So my view of the world may be different, you all welcome to your views, that is the American way, I am happy with mine.

now look what you've done YIP.. you've got me and Scrapdog agreeing one something!

$100K/yr in most cities in the US for a family of 4, with college to save for, and mortgages, car payments, insurance, retirement to save for and any money left over for the anniversary dinner or kids birthday party is simply NOT ENOUGH.. trust me, I'm trying to do it.

 

[PositionandHold]

100K is nothing these days, unless you're single.

 

[Freedom]

pilotyip is now singing the Management Line; because he is Management!

Posit&hold; You were not getting an education, you were developing a skill, a pilot is a skilled worker, no formal education is required, only gov't certificates. Really any one with a certain level or skill or desire can become a pilot. A Doctor is knowledge worker, with a formal education requirement, you might be able to be a Doctor, but not everyone can become a doctor. If you want to be a lawyer, go to Law School, but you elected to be a pilot, do not compare yourself with other people career choices. Enjoy being one of luckiest guys in the world, if you are truly doing something you love, your lawyer friends are jealous of you. Every day guys quit their office jobs to become pilots because it beats the heck out of the cube. "Fly because you like, you know the rest (tag line). BTW the market determines your worth.

Trying to define one Professional (Doctor/Lawyer) as a "Knowledge Worker" and another Professional (Pilot) as a "Skilled Worker," is just yippilot's attempt to keep down the cost of doing business in his business. Yippilot has crossed the Line Pilot line to Management. A sure sign of this is when one only thinks of themselves. Maybe you were able to live frugally all the years on less than 100K Mr. pilotyip. But some of us don't want our families living in the slum of Ypsilanti, and do want to help our kids while they are in college. As a Professional Pilot, I will use my Intelligence to do whatever is necessary and legal to maximize my earning potential for the benefit of my family.

The reason that Doctors and Lawyers are able to maintain such a higher standard of living than Professional Pilots has everything to do with Extortion, and nothing to do with Supply and Demand. Doctors hold your Health over your head; what is more important than your health? Lawyers in general, manipulate the rules of Society; what is more important than civilization?

Pilots on the otherhand are a dime a dozen, primarily because so many little boys once had dreams of being a Pilot. Just like Actors are often taken advantage of on the "Casting Couch," Management tries to exploit the fact that we like what we do; in fact, have dreamed of doing in many cases since Childhood.

Anytime there is a good possibility of exploitation, protection is a wise asset to obtain. And there in rests the single most important reason that Pilots need Unions; to protect them from Greedy Management. But as useful as Unions can be to Pilots, they are not an absolute line of defense. Certain forces beyond their control can negatively affect even their ability to protect us. One of the biggest outside forces of recent years (excluding 9/11) has been the introduction of the Regional Jet. This economic tool has been abused by Management to undermine existing Good Contracts at Mainline Carriers, by farming the work out to lower cost structure Regional Partners, thereby significantly reducing the leverage available to the Pilot Negotiators at the Mainlines.

Anyone that has followed this industry for any length of time knows that when the Majors are Hiring Strong, it negatively affects the cost structure of the rest of the aviation industry, as Pilots jump ship for their Childhood Dreams.

Having said all this, the only tool available to us, since we do not have the Extortion tools of Doctors and Lawyers, is to Stand Together as One, in Solidarity, against the forces of Greed in Management. It is not a perfect solution, but it is the best one available to us, to retain the greatest amount of leverage in our quest to be Maximize our Compensation, doing what we love to do. And what is wrong with that. We are simply leveling the playing field. One Pilot standing alone has little Power to negotiate. A large Group of Pilots standing together has significantly Greater Power, to maximize compensation, given the present economic conditions.

Some pure Supply and Demand Management types view Union backed tactics as Extortion. I say, if Doctors and Lawyers can do it, then as a Union Pilot, I am in good company.

Freedom is NOT Free.