What happened to our "profession"???

[B737Dvr]

It's all good........

The one good thing about this is that people can see different points of view and then choose which way they go. Although I am one to try and see all points of view rather than just jump off the deep end, I can appreciate the end result trying be be conveyed. Unfortunately, V70t5's process does the cause more harm than good, imho. building unity is not done by demeaning people or being heavy handed. 1000 a day for Cit X work is not bad at all, but dont you kind of go back on your "i will not work for less than market's share of my worth and not a penny less" by going to work for Gemini? Must be that you have faith and see something good there beyond the meager wages.

not everyone has your luxury of having something else to rely on or to have done well in the markets. I also have a corportate background 135, and 91 and also did contract work for some nice $$$. but i am smart enough to realize that it will not always be there, so i plan accordingly. i also subscribe to something called being grateful. I have been on both sides of the table at a really ********************ty place and then at a better place and seeing those still at the crappy place. i have several uniforms at home and none of that is a result of lack of union. My career is still alive and i have had quite a ride at times really bumpy and other times smooth (for a while), and i am still quite young and eager to learn more and do more. but i do it with humility and with a sense of gratitude to still continue my career.

now i dont agree with certain things cargo360 does like make you pay for things to be hired, that is stupid, so that is why i wouldnt apply there.

anyways, let's try something different. you seem to have quite the energy to
push your agenda. you really didnt address the issues with why the industry hasnt passed on costs, or the lunacy in $59 fares. how do we remedy this?
God forbid G-4 start going for less than $6500 an hour, just so that we can have b and c listers start flying them. How about you start offering solutions.
what are pilots that are furloughed to do if they follow your advice and turn down employment in a tough environment (8K ALPA on street)? now with those that are at your so called crappy places, what do you suggest as a course of action to build a stronger ALPA? How do we move forward?

we are all ears......ready GO!

 

[HA25]

I'm done with the other thread, but I'll continue to dialogue here..

On the subject of "why Gemini"... simple answer: I see a jewel in the rough. Their pay now, under the worse of conditions is still better (when you factor in the contract provisions) than many operations that I was applying to both cargo and pax 121. More over, I had taken 3 years off from "Full time" flying and the likes of Fedex and UPS weren't in the cards for me as I wasn't "recent" enough for them. Gemini took a risk on me, and I'm doing the same for them.. I'm there with the intent of retiring from there 28 years later (assuming age 65). They'll have to make me leave by either going out of business, furlough, or fire me.

Now.. onto the big question. I'm not one for very long winded explaintions so I'll just say this.

The WALMARTIZATION of America. The best example is when I posted a link to a nice logbook that was hand bound the old fashioned way (the English way) and covered in fine leather which costs $50, I got more posts from pilots bitching at the additional $20 in cost, than appreciating the higher quality of the product.

Same goes to most things now.. Made in China has replaced Made in the USA, Germany, UK, France, etc.. Those countries now are relegated to only the finest products that the rich can afford. The rest of "us" have to live with cheap, disposable, false economy products and services. Banks are replacing tellers with machines, airlines are doing the same with "customer service agents"

Sure, things are getting cheaper for the "consumer" but they're also a shadow of their former self in terms of quality.

Who wins? The corporate entities that no longer call their home country a home.. These are multi-national corporations with no national boundaries and the Godless commie chinese are their new partner in the Walmartization of America.

There in a nutshell is your answer.

And no, my shoes aren't made in China, neither are most things I try to buy.. but sometimes it's impossible to avoid, even for me.

 

[HA25]

so what part of any of this do you not agree with?

http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=391

except the encourage men and woman bs in part 8.. that doesn't need any help!.


And look at this:http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/index.asp

 

[B737Dvr]

my pc is having issues with the dling of duane's comments, perhaps a brief recap?

now about the new hire pay....yeah it does suck man, so what do we do about it all?

i totally agree with the walmartization of america, that is an excellent point my man. unfortunately while the consumers reap benefits, businesses suffer if they arent cheap enough for walmart's likes and then have to sell their wares below cost.

i for one am sitting on the edge of my seat and waiting for the Q4 and year end numbers for swa to see how much closer to the red they are and to see how much more their fuel costs are QoQ as well as YoY. not to turn this into a swa debate, but they are the airline industry's walmart, and well i am all ears to see how they will maintain such high salaries without having to keep raising fares or worse take their turn at the concession negotiations.

all this has big implications for the industry because if swa pilots can keep their pay at their high levels or higher with the current balance sheet projections, then it will be a watershed moment for the rest of the industry's labor to point at them and say, see it can be done!

fortunately while swa keeps raising fares, so will the majors and now that they are much slimmer in terms of capacity, fleets, labor and overall costs, we'll see if the ABC lines will win over the masses over global frequent flier miles, club lounges, airline alliances and all the other perks that the majors offer all for the same if not close prices.

I for one will take CAL's FREE meals at meal time AND non stop, direct flight over swa's ABC lines, multiple legs and their peanuts for similar prices......

 

[HA25]

I for one will take CAL's FREE meals at meal time AND non stop, direct flight over swa's ABC lines, multiple legs and their peanuts for similar prices......

Amen brother...Amen...


Well, time to go join the real world for a while.. spent two days solid on this forum killing time/wasting time. Wife is home from visiting her mom, and I've got a class date in a week..

Take care, and best of luck with all you pursue.

 

[jonjuan]

I think it's interesting how on one hand, you feel that the Walmartization of the airline industry is in part responsible for the depressed pilot salaries. That as costs for everything else goes up, airline ticket prices have remained flat. You want to somehow take the market forces out and in an ideal world begin a labor guild which will force seat prices, revenues, profits, and salaries up. OK, I can see your point.
What I don't understand is how you have made a "killing" in the northern california real estate market over the past few years and somehow think that is simply market forces at work. It's speculators like you who have driven many people out of the real estate market or made home ownership unattainable. Because of this, many lower to middle income life long residents of Northern California will have to leave to be able to afford a place to live.
Yes, I am stretching a a bit, however, I am just trying to understand how on one hand you think there is nothing wrong (I certainly don't) with profiting at the expense of others and helping to fuel the exodus of potential homeowners while on the other hand, believe the current market forces in the airline industry don't make sense and should be artifically controlled because management makes too much and labor makes too little.
These industries are so similar with a small few profiting handsomely. It's quite interesting seeing the dichotomy of your opinion based on your current position, that's all. I am sure your 6 figure friends who are home every night would probably complain in the same manner had they rented the past few years and are now trying to buy a house which has tripled in value.

 

[HA25]

no comparison.. the market place of real estate is not the same as the market place of labor. Two totally different things. More over, I'm not a speculator in that I didn't buy the homes I did to sell them, but more to hold onto as investments.. it was the spike in the market that lead me to sell most of them, and move into a long terms position in commercial real estate. I invested in some good commercial real estate and I make an income from it, while the asset itself increases in value over time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-capitalist.. but on the other hand, I'm not for the freemarket unchecked. There is a balance, and the Catholic church (namely Pope JP II) has written a lot about this.. it's just so un-PC to follow what the church teaches these days.

 

[HA25]

As for Northern CA specifically.. the costs there have not gone up as much as other markets.. I grew up in Norcal and I can tell you it's always been expensive. Pilots earning top pay historically (from the late 70s) would have had a hard time buying in a nice neighborhood on one income.

 

[pilotyip]

This is still a great career, where else can you have an income in the upper 5% of US wage earners and do something you like.

 

[ksu_aviator]

In the past few years...

-Home prices have gone up 3-4 times..
-Gas is 2-3 times as much
-Food is 2 times as much
-Cars cost a lot more..
-Medical care is 3-4 times as much

...everything costs more.. everything!

I can't believe no one addressed the inaccuracies in this. First, home prices are dropping! I bought my home, brand new, for approximately $55 per square foot. Gas has gone up, way up, no argument there. Cars are much cheaper, well trucks any way. I saw a brand new, 2007 Ford F150 for $16,000. A few years ago that would be a $28,000 truck. Medical care is also up, won't argue there.

Over all, inflation was 2.5% (I believe) for 2005-2006. Last forecast I saw for 2006-2007 was 2%. Anyone that is not getting at least a 2% pay increase is, in reality, taking a pay cut.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally on board with the idea of reversing the race to the bottom. However, the only legitimate action that can be taken is to use real information to make a strong argument for real wage increases.