Well Stated

[Spinn555]

Most of us got into the "regional" level knowing how bad the pay is going to be, but with improvment on the horizon.
FO

Hey Flap-

I bought a lotto ticket, but it didn't come out to be that way-
-does that mean I go to the lotto department and ask them for the money that I knew was going to be mine when I win?


Sometimes I just don't see the reasoning of unions. Good for many reasons, I say YES THEY ARE, but at other times, there is a defined sense of some "pro-union" guys that they work for the Union first, and oh, by-the-way, the company signs their check. The devotion toward a club that YOU PAY MONEY IN TO, to be a part of, boggles the mind.

"The company went bankrupt, I'm afraid you're out of a job, son."

"Who cares, at least I'm getting $75/hr!"


hmmm

*sniff* *sniff* -I smell smoke....

 

[cynic]

Because the only way you can do anything about changing it is when you're in-house.

Orrrrr... you could not take the job. I'm sorry but the boneheads at XJT are getting EXACTLY what they signed up for.

XJT pilots get no, zip, nadda, zero, zilch, none sympathy here.

You signed up to work knowing what they pay was, and now you are pissed that it is what it is.

 

[flap operator]

Spin555 - IMPROVMENT meant captain. Captain is not on the horizon for many FOs as a direct result of a ton of factors... the biggest being this downturn in the indsutry. Nobody could have predicted this and therefore a lot of us are going to be FOs way longer than anticipated. Well, that's the breaks and we have to deal with it. But why is it such a crime to raise our compensation? As a corporate pilot or whatever you are you knew the ramifications of the job. But are not not trying to make things better if given the opportunity? That's exactly what XJT is trying to do and that's exactly what any worker would want to do if possible.

FO

 

[Spinn555]

Spin555 - ...why is it such a crime to raise our compensation?

Raising a compensation level is one thing.
Complaining about a compensation level that was in an agreement is another. The deal was signed, agreed to, approved, and implimented. The agreement is then b!tched about for not being enough. The cycle goes on and on. Gets rather old. Exactly, what is enough? What is the dollar figure, QOL, etc. When is the cup full, rather than, "why didn't you give me a second glass?"

As a corporate pilot or whatever you are you knew the ramifications of the job. But are not not trying to make things better if given the opportunity?

Making things better for me will only mean making things better for the company also. If I succeed, the company succeeds. If the company falls, I am out of a job. Both move in parallel. The company "mgmt" is not going to do anything purposely to hurt themselves. Every now and then, they make bad decisions, such as your mgmt has done with Big Sky. But in the end, their goal is for growth and economic prosperity. Pilots make mistakes too. Hell, every now and then a FA spills some coffee.

But then what seems to be mentioned is that "Management is screwing us out of money, they get raises, they take all the money." Well, that's management. They have the power, they make the decisions. If that's what you want, get into management. It's does not take a birthright to get into such a situation.

I am a true believer of "Supply vs. Demand" Economics. If you really want to get the absolute true value of something, let the market dictate. Let wages/work rules move in a way that shows companies what people are willing to work for. If it gets too low, no one will apply.

What many have done, including myself, has both sides working alright. I tell the people that determine my wages how much I feel is fair for me to work at. They generally are happy with the work ethic, and job perfomance I give them, and a wage is agreed upon, (except for a few minor details that are also negotiated.) If I request too much, I would only do one thing, and that is hurt myself. It would either mean that they would shop for new personnel, or after time, the company realizes that the Flight Department is too much of an expense, and cut the program.

Ying and Yang. Perfect harmony. And I am not on an airport sidewalk with a sandwich board.

 

[RJP]

Orrrrr... you could not take the job. I'm sorry but the boneheads at XJT are getting EXACTLY what they signed up for.

XJT pilots get no, zip, nadda, zero, zilch, none sympathy here.

You signed up to work knowing what they pay was, and now you are pissed that it is what it is.

Here stands the dilema. You get a job offer. The pay sucks but it's a job offer. You want/need multi-turbine time so you can hopefully get to your final career job at a major (assuming they'll hire someday).

Do you turn down the job and walk away because they have a crap contract or do you take the job, build time, bitch about the pay and try to get ALPA to support a new contract.

It's easy for guys with jobs to say that they wouldn't take a job at a crap airline but there are plenty of guys that see it as an avenue to get elsewhere and may have no other option.

 

[hbrow15]

 Complaining about a compensation level that was in an agreement is another. The deal was signed, agreed to, approved, and implimented. The agreement is then b!tched about for not being enough. The cycle goes on and on

I agree with this line of thinking but there is an exception here. When an athlete holds out of training camp because he is unhappy with what he is being paid but under contract then he is wrong because he is under contract.( although the team can cut him at anytime and dont have to pay him the value of the contract, but that's another thread). If I read this correctly, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the contract between the pilots and expressjet as expired. Which in my opinion is the time to b1tch about the pay or anything else that you didn't like about the previous contract. If they complain while under an existing contract then I agree with your position 100%.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

The deal was signed, agreed to, approved, and implimented.

But isn't the contract expired, making "the deal" no longer acceptable to today's wages? I think this whole thing centers on the fact that the contract is expired, a.k.a. no longer valid.

If I got a job with Mesaba today, who has a new and current contract, I would not b1tch at all. But if I was hired at a place that has an expired contract, I would expect a new and better contract soon, not after several years.

 

[sf3boy]

I personally think that all the regional pilots that are "complaining and whinining" about their situation should take a page out of Gulfstream 200's playbook and start sending out resumes to all the better corporate jobs out there. And in the resume, be sure to put that you will fly for 1/3 less money than that of the corporation's current, less experienced pilots. It would be a raise in pay for most of the regional pilots to do this.

 

[a-v-8er]

It's not the new guys fault, who's taking a job with substandard wages - maybe he was put in that situation by others before him and needs to take that job (literally). Unlike aviation jobs, when it comes to other professions you won't always get away with just having any college degree. I know for sure that aviation science isn't as well rounded as you'd hoped it would be and there aren't that many jobs you could find that would fit like the hand in the glove. Besides, for everyone who says go find another job outside of aviation - keep in mind that the person taking that $18,000/year job is probably getting better QOL than before and even if the glamour of the honeymoon wears of relatively soon is still doing it the same way everyone of us has sometime in the past. So, is it really this guys fault for our own miserably situation?

If we really hate it so much, then why are we still here? I know I like my job! Am I happy with the job situation and pay that pilots at the lower end of the spectrum get - hell no, but complaining about it never made things better. Neither did just accepting facts either. Just direct your energy in the proper direction and spare some of those new guys, is it really their fault? I know it can be argued that by taking these substandard wages thing will likely not improve, since someone is "willing" to work for that little money - but it's not the root of the problem here.

I've never met a whinier group of people than pilots and we all seem to blame the new guys for our own disappointments with our jobs. If there's one thing I wish could change more than just what we make it would be our attitudes! Once airborne most people are fine, but as soon as we're wheels on the ground again - the whining starts and we're back to the blame game thing again...

Good gravy...

 

[Jungle_Jet]

This type of discussion always cracks me up. I love it when guys (or gals, though they tend to be a little smarter then us) take a job knowing full well the conditions of the job beforehand, then complain afterwards.

When we hire guys, I'm very up front about what we pay and what the potential conditions of the job are. I'm often tryong to talk guys out of taking the job, especially because hte decrease in compensation may not be worth it.

However, having said that I must also say that we pay much more than the average regional. We pay our crews around the low to mid $30's for CA's and the low to mid $20's for FO's. And that's just for a PA-31, one of several types we operate (yes we fly it with two man crews, lots of hard IFR in our area). Add that to 401k plans, full medical, dental, life, LTD coverage and we do much better. And our flights generate much less revenue per turn than the regionals do. So if we can afford it, surely those schmucks in management can as well.

Also, it's always a wise idea to scare off your passengers by trashing your company to the public. Great idea, especially in today's climate! That's sure to increase business and make the public feel great about flying your company.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

First of all, the union is putting this out to combat the common misbelief that airline pilots are rich. This is to gain both sympathy from the flying public as well as credibility in the event of the need to strike. This is politics, plain and simple.
To those of you saying you don't feel bad, I notice that you are not in a similar financial position. I see a guy who flies Falcons and makes at least more than $60K, but probably closer to >$90K. The America West guy really baffles me. Didn't your union just get better pay doing the same kind of thing? That wreaks of hypocrisy! Nonetheless, this is a typical pilot's attitude, "I am better than another." Those XJT guys are stupid for signing up and I am smart for getting a better paying job. You think that as though you personally had anything to do with how much your employer pays. Instead of politely saying I disagree with XJT et al; you guys make these juvenile comments aimed at making yourselves look so smart and those others at looking so stupid.

 

[Daveman]

Juvenile indeed.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We CHOSE not to put ourselves in that financial position...It was not fate or luck by any means...

I COULD NEVER have worked for those wages since I was 18 yrs old. Forget about it..

F' me man, nobody makes 18K/yr when they are 25-30 yrs old!! NOBODY. Certainly not a "professional".

What IS juvenile is taking a job at those wages, then turning around a year or two later and crying that you DESERVE better. If you still think its all good and you just love flying for a living - so be it, good for you - keep quiet and get your food stamps.....but it sounds to me like that "airline pilot" thing wore off quick.

This group created thier own delemia, plain and simple.

Its laughable!!

and I really mean that in a SAD way..

 

[gear_guy]

To those of you saying you don't feel bad, I notice that you are not in a similar financial position.

That's right! And I could have taken the regional job. But I did'nt and could'nt make it work (as previously stated.) I am not claiming to be smarter than anyone. I am happy with the corporate flying world. It is where I want to be right now. The problem is like G200 said, too many guys just want to be a big airline pilot and are willing to be in poverty to do it. Once again, stop whining....you knew what you were getting into.

As far as hoping to upgrade in X amount of time. Boo-hoo!! You mean you took this job thinking I'll be making capt. wages in 2 years? It is surprising how many pilots are willing to live in poverty when the capt. carrot is dangled. If you don't like your pay that you agreed on, go find another job. There are other jobs out there.

 

[ThisistheDream]

you can say that its your fault for taking that job with crappy pay, but the problem is you cant from point A to C without going to thru point B, which is usually a crappy paying job whether its flying or any career field. But the big difference and problem here is that the airlines crappy pay as an FO for regionals is SO LOW its robbery!!!! If corporate america knew what the airlines paided 1st year pilots at the regionals, they would lower entry level jobs from 30-35K to 25K overnight. And would the people say well i am not taking that crappy corporate job cuase they pays is pad for the 1st 5years. those people would have no other choice but to take the jobs. The only way we can change this is with our unions when we the pilots currently flying at the airlines say enough of this welfare pay and require with out new contract that starting pay is somewhat liveable!! 18K a year even 25K a year in todays dollar is BAD!!! disgracefully BAD!!! The contract is voted on by the pilots so until we say no to making 18k ayear it will continue and a problem here is that some pilots that vote on the new contract have moved up in pay and feel that they paided thier dues making 18k a year or even lower and dont care what the 1st year pay really is since it does not affect them, so they would rather agree to keeping pay at 18K or very very low so instead the 5th year pay can be more. Imagine pilots caring about other pilots, thats a scary thought, but thats the only way i see the pay getting liveable for regional FO's. I mean come on we can say its your fault for taking the low paying crappy job all day long but when it comes down to being realistic we are not complaing about making only 30K a year, we are taking about 18k-25K a year which is insult to anyone who has an education!!! If the passengers knew how much regional FO's really made, I wouldnt be surprised to see the passengers give them a tip for real. We give cabbies, van drivers tip cuase we fell they dont make much so we give them a tip to help them out and say thanks. i could see this happening easily if the passengers really knew how much we made!!!