Well Stated

[hbrow15]

 Complaining about a compensation level that was in an agreement is another. The deal was signed, agreed to, approved, and implimented. The agreement is then b!tched about for not being enough. The cycle goes on and on

I agree with this line of thinking but there is an exception here. When an athlete holds out of training camp because he is unhappy with what he is being paid but under contract then he is wrong because he is under contract.( although the team can cut him at anytime and dont have to pay him the value of the contract, but that's another thread). If I read this correctly, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the contract between the pilots and expressjet as expired. Which in my opinion is the time to b1tch about the pay or anything else that you didn't like about the previous contract. If they complain while under an existing contract then I agree with your position 100%.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

The deal was signed, agreed to, approved, and implimented.

But isn't the contract expired, making "the deal" no longer acceptable to today's wages? I think this whole thing centers on the fact that the contract is expired, a.k.a. no longer valid.

If I got a job with Mesaba today, who has a new and current contract, I would not b1tch at all. But if I was hired at a place that has an expired contract, I would expect a new and better contract soon, not after several years.

 

[sf3boy]

I personally think that all the regional pilots that are "complaining and whinining" about their situation should take a page out of Gulfstream 200's playbook and start sending out resumes to all the better corporate jobs out there. And in the resume, be sure to put that you will fly for 1/3 less money than that of the corporation's current, less experienced pilots. It would be a raise in pay for most of the regional pilots to do this.

 

[a-v-8er]

It's not the new guys fault, who's taking a job with substandard wages - maybe he was put in that situation by others before him and needs to take that job (literally). Unlike aviation jobs, when it comes to other professions you won't always get away with just having any college degree. I know for sure that aviation science isn't as well rounded as you'd hoped it would be and there aren't that many jobs you could find that would fit like the hand in the glove. Besides, for everyone who says go find another job outside of aviation - keep in mind that the person taking that $18,000/year job is probably getting better QOL than before and even if the glamour of the honeymoon wears of relatively soon is still doing it the same way everyone of us has sometime in the past. So, is it really this guys fault for our own miserably situation?

If we really hate it so much, then why are we still here? I know I like my job! Am I happy with the job situation and pay that pilots at the lower end of the spectrum get - hell no, but complaining about it never made things better. Neither did just accepting facts either. Just direct your energy in the proper direction and spare some of those new guys, is it really their fault? I know it can be argued that by taking these substandard wages thing will likely not improve, since someone is "willing" to work for that little money - but it's not the root of the problem here.

I've never met a whinier group of people than pilots and we all seem to blame the new guys for our own disappointments with our jobs. If there's one thing I wish could change more than just what we make it would be our attitudes! Once airborne most people are fine, but as soon as we're wheels on the ground again - the whining starts and we're back to the blame game thing again...

Good gravy...

 

[Jungle_Jet]

This type of discussion always cracks me up. I love it when guys (or gals, though they tend to be a little smarter then us) take a job knowing full well the conditions of the job beforehand, then complain afterwards.

When we hire guys, I'm very up front about what we pay and what the potential conditions of the job are. I'm often tryong to talk guys out of taking the job, especially because hte decrease in compensation may not be worth it.

However, having said that I must also say that we pay much more than the average regional. We pay our crews around the low to mid $30's for CA's and the low to mid $20's for FO's. And that's just for a PA-31, one of several types we operate (yes we fly it with two man crews, lots of hard IFR in our area). Add that to 401k plans, full medical, dental, life, LTD coverage and we do much better. And our flights generate much less revenue per turn than the regionals do. So if we can afford it, surely those schmucks in management can as well.

Also, it's always a wise idea to scare off your passengers by trashing your company to the public. Great idea, especially in today's climate! That's sure to increase business and make the public feel great about flying your company.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

First of all, the union is putting this out to combat the common misbelief that airline pilots are rich. This is to gain both sympathy from the flying public as well as credibility in the event of the need to strike. This is politics, plain and simple.
To those of you saying you don't feel bad, I notice that you are not in a similar financial position. I see a guy who flies Falcons and makes at least more than $60K, but probably closer to >$90K. The America West guy really baffles me. Didn't your union just get better pay doing the same kind of thing? That wreaks of hypocrisy! Nonetheless, this is a typical pilot's attitude, "I am better than another." Those XJT guys are stupid for signing up and I am smart for getting a better paying job. You think that as though you personally had anything to do with how much your employer pays. Instead of politely saying I disagree with XJT et al; you guys make these juvenile comments aimed at making yourselves look so smart and those others at looking so stupid.

 

[Daveman]

Juvenile indeed.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

We CHOSE not to put ourselves in that financial position...It was not fate or luck by any means...

I COULD NEVER have worked for those wages since I was 18 yrs old. Forget about it..

F' me man, nobody makes 18K/yr when they are 25-30 yrs old!! NOBODY. Certainly not a "professional".

What IS juvenile is taking a job at those wages, then turning around a year or two later and crying that you DESERVE better. If you still think its all good and you just love flying for a living - so be it, good for you - keep quiet and get your food stamps.....but it sounds to me like that "airline pilot" thing wore off quick.

This group created thier own delemia, plain and simple.

Its laughable!!

and I really mean that in a SAD way..

 

[gear_guy]

To those of you saying you don't feel bad, I notice that you are not in a similar financial position.

That's right! And I could have taken the regional job. But I did'nt and could'nt make it work (as previously stated.) I am not claiming to be smarter than anyone. I am happy with the corporate flying world. It is where I want to be right now. The problem is like G200 said, too many guys just want to be a big airline pilot and are willing to be in poverty to do it. Once again, stop whining....you knew what you were getting into.

As far as hoping to upgrade in X amount of time. Boo-hoo!! You mean you took this job thinking I'll be making capt. wages in 2 years? It is surprising how many pilots are willing to live in poverty when the capt. carrot is dangled. If you don't like your pay that you agreed on, go find another job. There are other jobs out there.

 

[ThisistheDream]

you can say that its your fault for taking that job with crappy pay, but the problem is you cant from point A to C without going to thru point B, which is usually a crappy paying job whether its flying or any career field. But the big difference and problem here is that the airlines crappy pay as an FO for regionals is SO LOW its robbery!!!! If corporate america knew what the airlines paided 1st year pilots at the regionals, they would lower entry level jobs from 30-35K to 25K overnight. And would the people say well i am not taking that crappy corporate job cuase they pays is pad for the 1st 5years. those people would have no other choice but to take the jobs. The only way we can change this is with our unions when we the pilots currently flying at the airlines say enough of this welfare pay and require with out new contract that starting pay is somewhat liveable!! 18K a year even 25K a year in todays dollar is BAD!!! disgracefully BAD!!! The contract is voted on by the pilots so until we say no to making 18k ayear it will continue and a problem here is that some pilots that vote on the new contract have moved up in pay and feel that they paided thier dues making 18k a year or even lower and dont care what the 1st year pay really is since it does not affect them, so they would rather agree to keeping pay at 18K or very very low so instead the 5th year pay can be more. Imagine pilots caring about other pilots, thats a scary thought, but thats the only way i see the pay getting liveable for regional FO's. I mean come on we can say its your fault for taking the low paying crappy job all day long but when it comes down to being realistic we are not complaing about making only 30K a year, we are taking about 18k-25K a year which is insult to anyone who has an education!!! If the passengers knew how much regional FO's really made, I wouldnt be surprised to see the passengers give them a tip for real. We give cabbies, van drivers tip cuase we fell they dont make much so we give them a tip to help them out and say thanks. i could see this happening easily if the passengers really knew how much we made!!!

 

[a-v-8er]

...thank you for choosing Big Kahuna Airlines... Keep in mind your fellow pilots on your way out of the aircraft as we'll leave our hats for you to show your appreciation and leave some gratuity! Once again, sit back relax and open you wallet...

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Gufstream-

Why can't an 18 year-old make more? For that matter, I know that most college grads earn around $40K for their first year (in the business field among others). I hear what you are saying and I would agree with most of it except that we in the airline world are definately not crying - we are campainging! When Delta pilots got furloughed and management got bonuses, it really sent a message to those of us in the labor force. That message was stand up for yourselves, which is what we are trying to do. This is only one part, and it seems to be working. Ironically, pilots like yourself seem hellbent on fighting us instead of supporting us. That's laughable, in a very sad way!

 

[gear_guy]

you can say that its your fault for taking that job with crappy pay, but the problem is you cant from point A to C without going to thru point B, which is usually a crappy paying job whether its flying or any career field.

Once again, it would'nt have to be crappy pay. The pilots who continue to take these jobs are the only ones to blame for the continued sub standard wages.

But the big difference and problem here is that the airlines crappy pay as an FO for regionals is SO LOW its robbery!!!!

Cmon...if it were robery, you would'nt have every joe schmo signing up to do it. It's simple supply v. demand. The company knows you'll accept it, so they offer it. If you ran a company you'd do the same thing. You's be stupid not to.

If corporate america knew what the airlines paided 1st year pilots at the regionals, they would lower entry level jobs from 30-35K to 25K overnight.

No they wouldnt. That is not unless they could continue to get people to sign up for those jobs. Then they would be stupid not to do it.

And would the people say well i am not taking that crappy corporate job cuase they pays is pad for the 1st 5years.

Yes, and they do. I did it with the regionals.

The only way we can change this is with our unions when we the pilots currently flying at the airlines say enough of this welfare pay and require with out new contract that starting pay is somewhat liveable!!

I doubt it. What has your union done for you lately? The history speaks volumes about the future.

until we say no to making 18k ayear it will continue and a problem

Now you're gettin it.

Imagine pilots caring about other pilots, thats a scary thought, but thats the only way i see the pay getting liveable for regional FO's.

How about caring for yourself. You will be very disappointed if you go thru life hoping other people will help you out. Secure your own future.

If the passengers knew how much regional FO's really made, I wouldnt be surprised to see the passengers give them a tip for real.

When will people understand that pax could care less what you are paid. Oh, they might be surprised. But they're not gonna sacrifice their ticket price to give you a raise.

We give cabbies, van drivers tip cuase we fell they dont make much so we give them a tip to help them out and say thanks. i could see this happening easily if the passengers really knew how much we made!!!

I don't tip b/c of how much they make. I tip when a service has exceeded my expectations. If that were the case I'd tip school teachers and policemen. Not pilots.

PS- I don't want you to think I am against you getting paid better. I really do hope there are increases in the regional pay. I just think there are obvious reasons why that has yet to happen.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Gufstream-

Why can't an 18 year-old make more? For that matter, I know that most college grads earn around $40K for their first year (in the business field among others). I hear what you are saying and I would agree with most of it except that we in the airline world are definately not crying - we are campainging! When Delta pilots got furloughed and management got bonuses, it really sent a message to those of us in the labor force. That message was stand up for yourselves, which is what we are trying to do. This is only one part, and it seems to be working. Ironically, pilots like yourself seem hellbent on fighting us instead of supporting us. That's laughable, in a very sad way!

no way man, Im not fighting you one bit...

but you dont even have a fight to go to!!!

Its simple, you cant accept a job then turn around a year later and DEMAND more because its not a liveable wage.

Your management/owners are laughing thier a$$es off at you.

Just step aside and let the next fool strap on the poly uniform......

 

[Lequip]

Boo-Hoo, let me pass this guy some tissue. He made his bed and must lie in it now. I love these guys who pi$$ and moan about how bad they have it knowing darn well what the pay and QOL was when they started. NEWS ALERT..... Always been this way and ain't never going to change. Too many starving CFI's out there dying to get in. If you have a wife and 2 kids and commute ect. ect. GET THE HE.LL OUT AND DO SOMETHING OUT. For those us of who love the job/pay/QOL, SHUT THE FCKU UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well OK. I guess that sums this one up, huh?

 

[hbrow15]

Its simple, you cant accept a job then turn around a year later and DEMAND more because its not a liveable wage.

If the contract is up and in negiotiations then is the pilot whining if they say as part of the new contract we want to be paid more?, because it sounds like what is being said is that they should continue and accept what the company offers.

 

[ThisistheDream]

we are talking about making 18k-20k your 1st year not 25k which is still low. regardless of the arguements the pay is to low at 18-20K a year starting. that is too low for any job that requires a degree which most airlines want in addition to thousands of dollars of your own money to get the required ratings to get the job. yeah call it supply and demand but agian we are talking 18k-20k a year for a professional job. I am not complaining i am trying to campaign since i know what it is like to be at 1st year pay, making less than a excon working as a night janitor. 20K a year turns into 9.61 dollars an hour at 40 hours a week after all said and done with taxes, health ins. taken out your looking at around 1000-1100 dollars a month take home. as far as supply and demand goes there seems to be more than enough lawyers, doctors, teachers, mechanics around trying to get jobs than there are jobs available in that profession but they still get livable wages, so why dont other profession do the same with 1st year low pay. I think the airlines take advantage of the situation, but again i say 18-20K, and before you say its your fault for taking the job just think how low that its when you break it down and compare to other jobs. we might as well work in a sweat shop cuase thats what the airlines are basically doing to pilots with the current low pay.

 

[gear_guy]

we are talking about making 18k-20k your 1st year not 25k which is still low. regardless of the arguements the pay is to low at 18-20K a year starting. that is too low for any job that requires a degree which most airlines want in addition to thousands of dollars of your own money to get the required ratings to get the job. yeah call it supply and demand but agian we are talking 18k-20k a year for a professional job.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. It is way too low. I for one would never accept that wage. But unfortunately some would. Therein lies your problem.

as far as supply and demand goes there seems to be more than enough lawyers, doctors, teachers, mechanics around trying to get jobs than there are jobs available in that profession but they still get livable wages, so why dont other profession do the same with 1st year low pay.

Because the pilot profession is a hobby to most people. It is the best job ever created IMO. And mgmt. know it. Doctors, lawyers, mechanics live a different life than we do. Let's face it, I don't want to work a desk job. And they know Joe Schmo will sell his soul to wear a poly suit (as G200 put very nicely.) As far as teachers, police, etc. go...I don't know where you live but they make about the same as a first year regional f/o here.