Warning: Your Takeoff rotation may be an accelerated stall manuver

[JT12345]

Warning: Your Takeoff rotation may be an accelerated stall maneuver demonstration

Are you rotating too fast during takeoff?

Most companies and even an FAA Advisory cirulars recommend rotations at 2.5 to 3 degrees per second to a target pitch of 15-20 degrees 2 engine and 5-8 degrees less than that target if an engine is lost. That means it should take 5-7 seconds for us to reach our target pitch if you do the math.

Yet a few pilots rotate at 7 degrees per second. They tell me they want to maintain V2 to V2+10. This speed is a minimum at 35 feet above the ground not a maximum during climbout.

I think an engine failure just after Vr when the nosewheel leaves the ground is more dangerous than an engine failure at V1.

I always assume during takeoff I might lose an engine after the nosewheel leaves the ground, and if I rotated too fast would lose control by the sudden acelerations along 2 axies.

Have you ever look at how quickly the red low speed bar shoots up to your current airspeed if you rotate at 6-7 degrees per second during takeoff. This is especially true during flex, derated, high alt., high temp. takeoffs. It is like the acceleration stall demos we did during out basic stall training. Why do it during take off so close to the ground? An airplane can stall at any airspeed.

I do agree that if we are a little late or delay our rotation and the airplane has a lot of acceleration a slightly quicker pitch should be used to get back on profile.

I think there are too many pilots doing this and warrants discussion and attention.

 

[LJ45]

IIRC.. Bombardier crashed a challenger in ICT during testing with aft CG because of this. There is no reason to rotate that fast, it is a bad habit.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Speed = Good

Even a sim, which flies exactly like a sim, is much easier to control single engine with the correct rotation technique. The extra airspeed attained during the initial climb is also beneficial during very gusty wind conditions.

 

[QCappy]

Are you rotating too fast during takeoff?

Most companies and even an FAA Advisory cirulars recommend rotations at 2.5 to 3 degrees per second to a target pitch of 15-20 degrees 2 engine and 5-8 degrees less than that target if an engine is lost. That means it should take 5-7 seconds for us to reach our target pitch if you do the math.

Yet a few pilots rotate at 7 degrees per second. They tell me they want to maintain V2 to V2+10. This speed is a minimum at 35 feet above the ground not a maximum during climbout.

I think an engine failure just after Vr when the nosewheel leaves the ground is more dangerous than an engine failure at V1.

I always assume during takeoff I might lose an engine after the nosewheel leaves the ground, and if I rotated too fast would lose control by the sudden acelerations along 2 axies.

Have you ever look at how quickly the red low speed bar shoots up to your current airspeed if you rotate at 6-7 degrees per second during takeoff. This is especially true during flex, derated, high alt., high temp. takeoffs. It is like the acceleration stall demos we did during out basic stall training. Why do it during take off so close to the ground? An airplane can stall at any airspeed.

I do agree that if we are a little late or delay our rotation and the airplane has a lot of acceleration a slightly quicker pitch should be used to get back on profile.

I think there are too many pilots doing this and warrants discussion and attention.

...and my brain just exploded.uke:

 

[dougdrvr]

People have been over rotating airplanes even before the term "rotate" was invented.

 

[jimcav]

I would tell them if they pull that s**t, then they aint flyin! Speed is life.Not to mention the possibility of a tailstrike.

 

[LawReview]

Are you rotating too fast during takeoff?

Most companies and even an FAA Advisory cirulars recommend rotations at 2.5 to 3 degrees per second to a target pitch of 15-20 degrees 2 engine and 5-8 degrees less than that target if an engine is lost. That means it should take 5-7 seconds for us to reach our target pitch if you do the math.

Yet a few pilots rotate at 7 degrees per second. They tell me they want to maintain V2 to V2+10. This speed is a minimum at 35 feet above the ground not a maximum during climbout.

I think an engine failure just after Vr when the nosewheel leaves the ground is more dangerous than an engine failure at V1.

I always assume during takeoff I might lose an engine after the nosewheel leaves the ground, and if I rotated too fast would lose control by the sudden acelerations along 2 axies.

Have you ever look at how quickly the red low speed bar shoots up to your current airspeed if you rotate at 6-7 degrees per second during takeoff. This is especially true during flex, derated, high alt., high temp. takeoffs. It is like the acceleration stall demos we did during out basic stall training. Why do it during take off so close to the ground? An airplane can stall at any airspeed.

I do agree that if we are a little late or delay our rotation and the airplane has a lot of acceleration a slightly quicker pitch should be used to get back on profile.

I think there are too many pilots doing this and warrants discussion and attention.

Ok, I've gotta ask: Who are you flying with? Our Airbus print's out a takeoff report that includes the maximum roatation rate on takeoff. I've never seen it once above 3.2 degrees per second, regardless of who's flying. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone rotate at 7 degrees/second. Although I agree, that would be asking for trouble.

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Are you rotating too fast during takeoff?

Most companies and even an FAA Advisory cirulars recommend rotations at 2.5 to 3 degrees per second to a target pitch of 15-20 degrees 2 engine and 5-8 degrees less than that target if an engine is lost. That means it should take 5-7 seconds for us to reach our target pitch if you do the math.

Yet a few pilots rotate at 7 degrees per second. They tell me they want to maintain V2 to V2+10. This speed is a minimum at 35 feet above the ground not a maximum during climbout.

I think an engine failure just after Vr when the nosewheel leaves the ground is more dangerous than an engine failure at V1.

I always assume during takeoff I might lose an engine after the nosewheel leaves the ground, and if I rotated too fast would lose control by the sudden acelerations along 2 axies.

Have you ever look at how quickly the red low speed bar shoots up to your current airspeed if you rotate at 6-7 degrees per second during takeoff. This is especially true during flex, derated, high alt., high temp. takeoffs. It is like the acceleration stall demos we did during out basic stall training. Why do it during take off so close to the ground? An airplane can stall at any airspeed.

I do agree that if we are a little late or delay our rotation and the airplane has a lot of acceleration a slightly quicker pitch should be used to get back on profile.

I think there are too many pilots doing this and warrants discussion and attention.

You are correct sir.... far too often "our" books and the FAA's approval of them, makes only reference and emphasis to V1, VR, V2, and the performance and associated stage climb using only V1, VR, and V2. Very few pilots, and even less instructors in school houses actually understand, let alone teach V_LOF or V-Lift Off. V1,VR and V2 speeds are calculated, VLOF is derived using the technique of 2.5-3.0 degrees per second, and is the speed that that aircraft, at that weight, at on that runway, with that flap setting, for that day...etc... will "Lift Off".... VR and VLOF are not the same speed.... Too bad more training Dpt's dont teach the difference... as Vr having been called doesn't mean "takeoff NOW" As some you refered to seem to operate....

Anything more or less the 2.5-3.0 degrees prescribed will effect your stage climb performance negatively to some degree....

V1

 

[svcta]

It's important to recognize that the call at Vr (be it "rotate" or just "Vr) merely gives you permission to rotate from that point onward. Within reason it may be wise to slightly delay the rotation in order to gain a little extra energy/control authority. Especially when you've corked an engine after V1. Time after time in the sim i find that this practice really makes an engine failure during takeoff a much more manageable event. having an extra 5 0r 10 knots as the airplane unsticks makes a ton of difference. We've all seen guys that hear the speed called and seem to feel like they're in a mad rush to get in the air. The longer my career gets the less I see reasons to rush anything, especially when things are going wrong.

Just about more than anything these days, though, I think that swept wing jets need to be treated gingerly a takeoff speeds on or near the runway. Within reason, don't chase a flight director, target speed, or anything else until you've got some energy underneath you.

 

[GuppyWN]

I "roll it off" just like I "roll it on."

Personal preference. I see no need to pucker on takeoff waiting for the tail to hit.

Gup