W & B question

[Dumb Pilot]

Technically it's illegal, that's the regulation, why bother having a regulation if you are allowed to finese your way around it. The release is indeed a plan and there are expectations that the actual flight will need to vary from the plan eventually, that's why you have reserve, hold, contingency fuel, the FAA does not look kindly on blowing off the plan (without dispatch concurence) before takeoff.


Do yourself a favor, burn down to where you need to be or have the dispatcher refigure the burn for a higherspeed/lower altitude.

Anything else borders on wink-wink compliance with the regualtions, trouble with that is, after a while wink-wink becomes the norm. then people start finding themselves with FAA actions and Fines (think the fast taxiing airline)

You have a LOT of nerve sir, I'm not doing a wink wink (or whatever that expression means) on anything, I AM using one of the burn performance that is prescribed on my burn summary. If you notice I don't fly for a fast taxing airline but rather a place where we consider ourselves to be professionals. Do yourself a favor and get off that high horse

 

[AutoBus]

If the dispatcher amends the release for a higher speed/lower altitude, the new higher burn off fuel requirement will be reflected as MORE fuel required for min. takeoff fuel on the release and will not help your problem. If your MTOW is already limited by MLW at the destination, the higher fuel requirement per the new release will force you to offload payload to keep within limits.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have had to explain this.

Perhaps you have to explain it so many times because it make no sense what-so-ever.


Let me me explain it to you, the new higher burn, will allow you to make landing weight at the destination, Yes it will require MORE FUEL at TAKE OFF, BUT SINCE YOU Have too much fuel right NOW (because of the shorter taxi), THATS WHAT YOU WANT!

 

[AutoBus]

You have a LOT of nerve sir, I'm not doing a wink wink (or whatever that expression means) on anything, I AM using one of the burn performance that is prescribed on my burn summary. If you notice I don't fly for a fast taxing airline but rather a place where we consider ourselves to be professionals. Do yourself a favor and get off that high horse

If your release addresses that information, IE 453lbs more burn to fly the segment at 340 vs 360, etc, you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise I would recommend you get an amendment from the dispatcher supporting your conclusion.

That's pretty much common sense, correct me if i'm wrong.


To Recap, you can't blindly takeoff into the sunset KNOWING you will arrive at your destination overwieght.

You can't depart under those conditions change some flight paramater and hope and pray that you will burnoff enough fuel to be legal to land (without having it in FAA approved writing)

You can depart legally (per the release), and unknowingly find yourself overweight at your destination due to directs, winds, errors, etc. No-Problem you burnoff to legal landing weight and land.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

If your release addresses that information, IE 453lbs more burn to fly the segment at 340 vs 360, etc, you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise I would recommend you get an amendment from the dispatcher supporting your conclusion.

Are you seriously making this statement? Do you know what a burn summary is?

I apologize for saying that you had a lot of nerve, now I realize that you just don't have a clue

 

[Pull To Guns]

Perhaps you have to explain it so many times because it make no sense what-so-ever.


Let me me explain it to you, the new higher burn, will allow you to make landing weight at the destination, Yes it will require MORE FUEL at TAKE OFF, BUT SINCE YOU Have too much fuel right NOW (because of the shorter taxi), THATS WHAT YOU WANT!

Pre-Push, I am correct, Post-Push, you are correct, although you will probably not get an "official" amended release as the flight is already being conducted since it is away from the gate and is not in pre-planning stage anymore. You can get new advisory numbers from your dispatcher however and make your decision from that. The original release will still stand.

I have had many "Pre-Push" conversations with crews trying to get more payload on, hardly any of the other kind like the specific taxi fuel situation which I failed to address in my original post.

 

[AutoBus]

Pre-Push, I am correct, Post-Push, you are correct, although you will probably not get an "official" amended release as the flight is already being conducted since it is away from the gate and is not in pre-planning stage anymore. You can get new numbers from your dispatcher however and make your decision from that.

I have had many "Pre-Push" conversations with crews trying to get more payload on, hardly any of the other kind like the specific taxi fuel situation which I failed to address in my original post.

I agree with all of the above, in my example I was in a Post-Push mode (I should have made that clearer)

 

[AutoBus]

Are you seriously making this statement? Do you know what a burn summary is?

I apologize for saying that you had a lot of nerve, now I realize that you just don't have a clue

That's right, no clue. Hey sorry, your right. As a 20+ year domestic FAR 121 puke I have no idea what "burn Summary" means in the context of YOUR flight planning software and your company procedures, please enlighten me.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Pre-Push, I am correct, Post-Push, you are correct, although you will probably not get an "official" amended release as the flight is already being conducted since it is away from the gate and is not in pre-planning stage anymore. You can get new advisory numbers from your dispatcher however and make your decision from that. The original release will still stand.

I have had many "Pre-Push" conversations with crews trying to get more payload on, hardly any of the other kind like the specific taxi fuel situation which I failed to address in my original post.

My airline puts a release weight in the paperwork. According to the FOM, it's supposed to be the MTOW, but they use it more like a planned TOW. That means any time you're a little heavier than planned (short taxi, a little extra fuel, etc.) you get an amended release. Makes for a lot of unnecessary work. Happens pre- and post-push.

Ex: Release Wt. 156.1, MTOW 161.1, Actual Wt. 156.3.
You're nowhere near the limits for performance, but [DING-DONG] ACARS for an ammendment.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

It sounds like we're coming toward a consensus. DP, I'm with you on the FB as long as you have something that says -2,000 CRZ ALT = +450lbs in the performance summary or navlog or whatever.

Just saying you'll drop the gear/flaps isn't in the paperwork, and that's where the small lawyer center in some pilot's brains starts to squawk.

Some things are "Show me where it says I can't," and some are "Show me where it says I can." Performance numbers are the can-type.

I think the Q-tip things has risen to urban legend status. Last time I heard it, I think it was a Centurion.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

It sounds like we're coming toward a consensus. DP, I'm with you on the FB as long as you have something that says -2,000 CRZ ALT = +450lbs in the performance summary or navlog or whatever.

Just saying you'll drop the gear/flaps isn't in the paperwork, and that's where the small lawyer center in some pilot's brains starts to squawk.

I never said that bro, where did I say that? What I'm saying is that there is a LOT more performance information on our release paper work than we normally give a glance too, I have worked with both the CAA and the FAA as a check airman and a designee capacity, And I am telling you that we tend to restrict ourselves here more in the States than other captains following the same regulations.(the FAA is a subscriber of ICAO, once you translate from English to American the regulation say the same damn thing) There is a wide, WIDE envelope of information and performance choices contained within our release paperwork that we have given away to the dispatcher, we are going the same way that the medical industry is going by asking for permission to big brother every time we want to change a couple of thousand feet or change 15 knots on our speeds because we have gotten up to the point that we are more worried about CYA than learning what is and what isn't what we can do with our release information, this whole discussion started with an example that wasn't double the weight or anything like that, it started with an example of somebody being a few hundred pounds over and there is quite a bit of latitude contained within our release information. That is all I'm saying, you guys seem to think that if you are a couple of hundred pounds over and you don't get permission from big brother you busted .125 NO! sorry but that is just NOT the case

Autobus
read what we have posted (the both of us) and we probably tended to be a little dismissive of each others point of view, I didn't mean to say that you are not a professional and an individual that is dedicated to your career after 20+years in this crappy business. But telling me after my 27 years "do yourself a favor and talk to the dispatcher" like I'm a moron and I don't understand the paperwork I have at hand is a little dismissive too.

Anyhow, I formally apologize

To the original question by Flying Corporal

The short answer is NO, I agree with my colleagues that you cannot take off knowing within your "plan" that you will land overweight, but my recommendation is to approach your check airman core and get educated as to what is contained within your release paperwork, so that you know what you can and cannot adjust within the confinements of that release

Done with this particular thread, good day