Volcano? KLM flies anyway!!

[BILL LUMBERG]

Probably used all appropriate safety measures but this is pretty dumb if they start doing it with pax. My airline doesn't pay me enough!!


(CNN) -- Dutch airline KLM carried out a test flight Saturday night and detected "no problems" from the volcanic ash that has shut down air travel across much of Europe for the past four days, the airline announced Sunday.
"At first glance there is no reason to suspect that anything is amiss. We observed no irregularities either during the flight or during the initial inspection on the ground," said KLM president and CEO Peter Hartman, who was on the flight.
"Technical inspection conducted after yesterday's flight revealed that no problems had been encountered and that the quality of the atmosphere is in order," the airline said in a statement.
It's planning nine more test flights for Sunday, it said.
Amsterdam's Schiphol airport in the Netherlands is one of the busiest airports in Europe.
Saturday's test involved a Boeing 737-800 flying at an altitude of 41,000 feet (13,000 meters), the maximum altitude for the aircraft.
The first test flight Sunday departed from Dusseldorf, Germany, about 6:30 local time (12:30 a.m. ET).
The aircraft had no passengers on board, but was staffed by a 20-strong crew, the airline said.
"These are test flights," Hartman said. "This does not mean that normal air traffic has been resumed. This matter will be decided on by the Dutch air transport authorities in consultation with the European authorities."
Lufthansa also put planes in the air Saturday, but does not consider them to be test flights, spokesman Aage Duenhaupt said.
The German carrier flew 10 planes from Munich to Frankfurt, but kept below the altitude affected by the volcanic ash, he said.
Most flew at about 9,840 feet (3,000 meters), but one flew at 26,350 feet (8,000 meters).
The purpose was to have them in the right place when travel restrictions are lifted, Duenhaupt said.
The planes encountered no problems, he said.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Probably used all appropriate safety measures but this is pretty dumb if they start doing it with pax. My airline doesn't pay me enough!!


(CNN) -- Dutch airline KLM carried out a test flight Saturday night and detected "no problems" from the volcanic ash that has shut down air travel across much of Europe for the past four days, the airline announced Sunday.
"At first glance there is no reason to suspect that anything is amiss. We observed no irregularities either during the flight or during the initial inspection on the ground," said KLM president and CEO Peter Hartman, who was on the flight.
"Technical inspection conducted after yesterday's flight revealed that no problems had been encountered and that the quality of the atmosphere is in order," the airline said in a statement.
It's planning nine more test flights for Sunday, it said.
Amsterdam's Schiphol airport in the Netherlands is one of the busiest airports in Europe.
Saturday's test involved a Boeing 737-800 flying at an altitude of 41,000 feet (13,000 meters), the maximum altitude for the aircraft.
The first test flight Sunday departed from Dusseldorf, Germany, about 6:30 local time (12:30 a.m. ET).
The aircraft had no passengers on board, but was staffed by a 20-strong crew, the airline said.
"These are test flights," Hartman said. "This does not mean that normal air traffic has been resumed. This matter will be decided on by the Dutch air transport authorities in consultation with the European authorities."
Lufthansa also put planes in the air Saturday, but does not consider them to be test flights, spokesman Aage Duenhaupt said.
The German carrier flew 10 planes from Munich to Frankfurt, but kept below the altitude affected by the volcanic ash, he said.
Most flew at about 9,840 feet (3,000 meters), but one flew at 26,350 feet (8,000 meters).
The purpose was to have them in the right place when travel restrictions are lifted, Duenhaupt said.
The planes encountered no problems, he said.

So what do you suggest? This ash cloud could be there for years. Are you suggesting not having any flights to Europe for months or years? Ash is bad for airplanes. We know that, but KLM seems to think this ash cloud is mild enough to not affect airplanes. Their initial test seems to confirm their theory. I have no problem with it.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

So what do you suggest? This ash cloud could be there for years. Are you suggesting not having any flights to Europe for months or years? Ash is bad for airplanes. We know that, but KLM seems to think this ash cloud is mild enough to not affect airplanes. Their initial test seems to confirm their theory. I have no problem with it.

Sure, tell you what.....

First it's at 26,000 ft, then at night, then we cut the safety margin down to say "we think we can avoid MOST ash plumes" until someone puts one in the drink.

I don't want to cross the ocean at 26,000 feet or the US for that matter.
It's a super idea until someone gets hurt. Send us all south and readjust the tracks and then descend to 16,000 feet once feet dry?? Maybe.....

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Read about Speedbird 9 and tell me that doesn't give you the willies.

If they can predict where the ash cloud will be and you can avoid it, maybe. But just taxiing through that stuff can kill your engines.

 

[twobits]

hockey, I hear they have a mgt spot at KLM/AF for you. They really like your positive get it done attitude! You don't mind catching the next flight to AMS do you?

 

[Redmeat]

It appears "I am Dutch pilot extraordinaire!!!" syndrome is still alive and well...

 

[Mr Wu]

How bad/worse is this ash cloud compared to the one from the volcano in Alaska a couple of years back? All that one did was stink up the cabin.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

It appears "I am Dutch pilot extraordinaire!!!" syndrome is still alive and well...

I wonder how many people get this reference. Well played nonetheless.

 

[Fins Up]

Sure, tell you what.....

First it's at 26,000 ft, then at night, then we cut the safety margin down to say "we think we can avoid MOST ash plumes" until someone puts one in the drink.

I don't want to cross the ocean at 26,000 feet or the US for that matter.
It's a super idea until someone gets hurt. Send us all south and readjust the tracks and then descend to 16,000 feet once feet dry?? Maybe.....

What's wrong with 26,000 ft? My beloved P-3s and C-130s do it all the time.

 

[dicko]

So what do you suggest? This ash cloud could be there for years. Are you suggesting not having any flights to Europe for months or years? Ash is bad for airplanes. We know that, but KLM seems to think this ash cloud is mild enough to not affect airplanes. Their initial test seems to confirm their theory. I have no problem with it.

KLM carried out a previous "test" in 1989 when they flew a 747-400 through volcanic ash. All four engines failed. $ 80 million damage to the aircraft including the replacement of the engines.

 

[BoilerUP]

Its one thing to fly directly through a volcanic plume as KLM 867 and BA009 did...and another thing entirely to fly through 'diluted' ash thousands of miles downrange from the eruption while climbing or descending.

As long as the engines get borescoped on a regular basis (every flight, every 24 hours, whatever) I don't think safety of flight is really put at any risk...

 

[FLYLOW22]

There's only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

 

[lowpitchstop]

I bet it was reserve pilots who flew these "test flights"...

Safety is great until you lose $$$$ trying to honor it... once it becomes too expensive, safety is a nuisance. Let Mikey do it, he'll find the hole in that ash cloud.....

 

[lowpitchstop]

Deleted, dbl post..

 

[Mookie]

There's only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.

And Carnies.....

 

[Flynfish]

Spalding, could it be a Tenerife reference perhaps?

 

[GogglesPisano]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/minutes.html




1706:25.59
PA RT
Okay, we'll report when we're clear.

1706:31.69
APP
Thank you.

1706:32.43
KLM 3
Is he not clear, then?

1706:34.10
KLM 1
What do you say?

1706:34.15
PA ?
Yup.

1706:34.70
KLM 3
Is he not clear, that Pan American?

1706:35.70
KLM 1
Oh, yes. [emphatically]

Perhaps because of the KLM pilot's very senior position, neither the copilot nor flight engineer questions the pilot again, and the impact occurs about 13 seconds later.

 

[Kharma Police]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/minutes.html




1706:25.59
PA RT
Okay, we'll report when we're clear.

1706:31.69
APP
Thank you.

1706:32.43
KLM 3
Is he not clear, then?

1706:34.10
KLM 1
What do you say?

1706:34.15
PA ?
Yup.

1706:34.70
KLM 3
Is he not clear, that Pan American?

1706:35.70
KLM 1
Oh, yes. [emphatically]

Perhaps because of the KLM pilot's very senior position, neither the copilot nor flight engineer questions the pilot again, and the impact occurs about 13 seconds later.

Nice, you want to pull up some more CVR transcripts of pilot's before they died to prove some more moronic generalizations? How about some cracks at southerners for some crashes by DAL or Southern Airways?, or how about people from Texas with some AA crashes? I mean, all people from Holland must think just like van Zanten.........

 

[GogglesPisano]

You're right. My generalization was out of line. My apologies to the family of Capt Van Zanten.

 

[flyburg]

Well, I am a KLM pilot. The impact is huge. Since thursday no more flights in most of Europe. Can you imagine the cost, it's comparable if not worse than 9/11. Just as traffic is starting to pick up.

The stinker is, with the exemption of friday evening we had an awsome sunset, there is nothing but clear blue skies. Even now,at night, very clear skies.

The decision to not fly is made by bureacrats. Now after 3 days of not flying airlines, and not only KLM (also Lufthansa) are starting to question the wisdom and rationele behind the decision and they performed a testflight (btw if conditions are really as bad as some here suggest, you have to admit that it is a pretty balsy move of the CEO to be on board).

Suppose this would happen in the US, with the bad economic state the airlines are in. Everyday you look at clear skies, wouldn't you start to question at least the decision. Wouldn't you like to have some confirmation whether it is really as bad as some 'crat says it is? With your job on the line???

Nobody at KLM takes the safety implications for granted!!!

In reference to an earlier post, these were not reserve pilots, but company test pilots. Just like US airlines, pilots specifically trained with a prior background in aviation engineering or ex airforce test pilots, usually trained in Edwards or PAX or Boscombe down. Would you suggest they are not qualified for that task?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Thanks for the perspective, flyburg.

 

[StopNTSing]

Suppose this would happen in the US, with the bad economic state the airlines are in. Everyday you look at clear skies, wouldn't you start to question at least the decision. Wouldn't you like to have some confirmation whether it is really as bad as some 'crat says it is? With your job on the line???

Nobody at KLM takes the safety implications for granted!!!

In reference to an earlier post, these were not reserve pilots, but company test pilots. Just like US airlines, pilots specifically trained with a prior background in aviation engineering or ex airforce test pilots, usually trained in Edwards or PAX or Boscombe down. Would you suggest they are not qualified for that task?

Yes, I would. The levels of volcanic ash that are acceptable for safe operations are pretty well understood. The problem is identifying where those areas are, and unless the KLM aircraft were packed with a whole lotta whiz-bang instrumentation not normally found in passenger airliners, then it really doesn't matter if there are a couple of golden arms in the cockpit. I can't speak for Europe, but I know in the States there are a few research aircraft that have the right remote-sensing capabilities (mostly laser-based) to be able to safely and accurately define the size and altitudes of the ash cloud. I would hope that one or more of said aircraft are either speeding to the scene, or are already on station. With that information, you would think EuroControl would then be able to cordon off the unsafe airspace and just have the traffic routed above, below, or around the cloud.....much like a hurricane.

Maybe all this is already happening and the final result is that we are simply dealing with a huge cloud and a stagnant air mass that genuinely has made air travel unsafe for four days (and counting) over an entire continent. But I'm beginning to believe it is just the latest machinations of a paralyzed nanny-state bureaucracy.

 

[flyburg]

Your welcome,

Boy, it sucks though, things were finally looking up. more trainings, people moving up, finally an end to the economic downfall, and now this!!!

Can you imagine this happening in the US!!

Men, I was suppossed to fly the last three days, things have been very hectic. Situation changes from hour to hour. Respect to crew control. Most guys (including myself) have indicated to the company that we are fully ready to forego any stipulations in the CLA to help out.

A crisis like this brings out the best in people!! My wife works in crew control at Transavia and she volunteerd to come in on here day off to help out.

We will see what happens.

 

[labbats]

Say what you will about it, but I haven't done too many test pilot duties with the CEO on board. At least the guy puts his own neck out there.

 

[flyburg]

Yes, I would. The levels of volcanic ash that are acceptable for safe operations are pretty well understood. The problem is identifying where those areas are, and unless the KLM aircraft were packed with a whole lotta whiz-bang instrumentation not normally found in passenger airliners, then it really doesn't matter if there are a couple of golden arms in the cockpit. I can't speak for Europe, but I know in the States there are a few research aircraft that have the right remote-sensing capabilities (mostly laser-based) to be able to safely and accurately define the size and altitudes of the ash cloud. I would hope that one or more of said aircraft are either speeding to the scene, or are already on station. With that information, you would think EuroControl would then be able to cordon off the unsafe airspace and just have the traffic routed above, below, or around the cloud.....much like a hurricane.

Maybe all this is already happening and the final result is that we are simply dealing with a huge cloud and a stagnant air mass that genuinely has made air travel unsafe for four days (and counting) over an entire continent. But I'm beginning to believe it is just the latest machinations of a paralyzed nanny-state bureaucracy.

Hi, My comments were more directed at the reserve pilot statement. Not so much as the gold airm chaired pilots, My personal opinion, they would be very qualified to judge the situation.

But here's a question to you! how would you expect your airline to react to this situation?

Thanks

 

[CoolSidePillow]

And Carnies.....

and regional jet scum and everyone at Republicqua

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Spalding, could it be a Tenerife reference perhaps?

Ding Ding Ding! "We don't need a take-off clearance, set thrust."

 

[lowpitchstop]

Flyburg:

My reference to reserve pilots (which I am from time to time) had nothing to do with their skill level, I posted it because no "lineholding" pilot in their right mind would fly through a HOLE in an ash cloud (even with a CEO onboard) and a junior reserve may feel pressure to "get it done" for they feel their job's on the line.

I've flown many missions to and from Sicily while Mt. Etna was blowing off some steam and can tell you it's not a place to be "experimenting" with people's lives. We did not "blow off" the rules on flying around ash clouds like you eluded you would. Day VFR only upwind and above the cloud.. If you can do that, have at it... $$$$ is important, one aircraft that goes down with cowboy pilots flying it too close to or through it they'll be hell to pay...

 

[pilot error]

so how is a couple of hours flying a valid test? unknown variables, constantly changing concentrations, etc. you need a lot more data than a few hours to determine affect on the engines before you haul pax through it.

 

[twobits]

flyburg. and when KLM makes a profit, will they be sharing it with you? I think you are drinking too much of the kool-aid. Whether the air is clear enough to fly in or not is not my decision, but I would always go with the most conservative view - in this case the individual states that are saying it isn't safe to fly. If you were a politician, and approved flight, and then a plane crashed into a major city because of ash damage; do you think you would be put in jail? um... yes.

My suspicion is that you are a management pilot trying to convince the masses that if you have to show up to work, then everybody else should too.