Vitriol and Hate

[Turtle21]

The irony is that the West has such vitriol and hate directed toward the East pilots, but I am at a loss as to what great injustice they are suffering at the hands of the East.

The East has no issue with the West. (Can't say the same for Praer and pals, but the East has no beef with their brothers in the West.) The East doesn’t dislike the West, even though the West repeatedly boasts that they have “won” and that the AAA Mec is going to do more and more damage to the AAA pilots (repeated “wins” for the West). The West pilots aren’t the ones represented by “the morons that keep burying the AAA pilots.” The East even doesn’t react to the West’s unthinkable desire for the East to utterly fail in their effort to receive equal pay for equal work. The West “Can’t wait for the day of utter failure to happen.”

In all of this hate and ill will against them, the East has taken absolutely nothing from the West. ALPA national has validated the Nic list. The West has received profit sharing for profits they didn’t even contribute to. The West has not been harmed at all by the merger. They haven’t taken any pay cuts. There have been no furloughs. There have been no West domicile closures.

The West pilots by all accounts have received many positive benefits by the merger and have had no negative consequences. ALPA has validated the Nic list and it will only be a matter of time until the merger is completed and the company is able to benefit from the synergies of the merger.

Everything the West has received has been nothing less than “fair and equitable.”

What is it that the West is so up in arms about? Especially, why the hate and discord directed at fellow pilots in the East? It seems like all your expectations are peaches and cream so why is there hate if all your expectation are postive?
How do so many positive circumstances produce such a poisonous outlook?

The only logical thing seems that the West is impatient beyond all comprehension. I mean if everything is going to work out just fine (a win for the West) then the only room left for any complaint is with regard to the timing. But is timing sufficient to explain all the hate?

 

[sgmick]

Easy. The East has already had over 300 upgrades due to attrition this year and the West guys wanted that too.

If they arent satisfied with the NIC award, they will never be satisfied with anything. Maybe if the Easties get on their knees, rip out their hearts and hand the still beating organ to them they will be happy.

I doubt it.

 

[Turtle21]

Easy. The East has already had over 300 upgrades due to attrition this year..

Those weren't their upgrades so why would they be upset about that?

I don't think that explains their hate and ill will. There must be something else.

 

[vetrider]

Hey Turtle, you're the one running around yelling "fights on."

 

[FDJ2]

The East has no issue with the West. /quote]

Didn't the East file a lawsuit against the West?

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Earth to turtle... Come in Turtle....

Lets see, besides suing USWest and our MEC Chairman personally, they also refused to negotiate at all on the seniority list and took themselves and us into arbitration. Now they still refuse to negotiate a new contract to the benefit of all, and lets not forget the decert drive so they can impose their version of a "fair" list on the West.

Yep, the easties are princes... All the trouble makers are obviously Westies. Such vitriol and hate gosh Turtle, I'm so swayed by your amazing grasp of the situation.

Still, I don't hate the East, but I think Turtle is obviously retarded if he's posting something as dumb as the above.

 

[ironspud]

Still, I don't hate the East, but I think Turtle is obviously retarded if he's posting something as dumb as the above.

You can fix "ignorant", but you can't fix "stupid".

 

[IFollowRoads]

Maybe if the Easties get on their knees, rip out their hearts and hand the still beating organ to them they will be happy.

*checks behind zipper*

Just making sure...

 

[Turtle21]

Hey Turtle, you're the one running around yelling "fights on."

"Fights on." Is in an acknowledgement of Prater and Pals statements, and is not in regard to the West pilots in the least. Neither is there any hate accompanied with the term, as you seem to suggest. Fighter pilots understand the term.

I have no animosity toward the West pilots regardless of how many of you refuse to believe that I care deeply about the careers of the West brothers. Don't believe me if you wish... call me a liar, stupid, or ignorant. I have no animosity toward the West brothers at all.

What really confuses me is that the West hasn't been able to explain to me why they are so hateful toward the East pilots. What is the "plight" of the West? What exactly are the damages the East has caused the West?

 

[seefive]

From an outsider's perspective Turtle..............the east guys, including you, just don't get it.

 

[AA717driver]

Turtle--From someone on the outside looking in, I think the battle lines were drawn when the East MEC virtually insisted on DOH or nothing.

That and the 'less-than-100%-effort' in the negotiations probably cemented the animosity in the West. TC

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Turtle--From someone on the outside looking in, I think the battle lines were drawn when the East MEC virtually insisted on DOH or nothing.

That and the 'less-than-100%-effort' in the negotiations probably cemented the animosity in the West. TC

Wow the last two posts said it all!!!

WD

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle--From someone on the outside looking in, I think the battle lines were drawn when the East MEC virtually insisted on DOH or nothing.

That and the 'less-than-100%-effort' in the negotiations probably cemented the animosity in the West. TC

I appreciate your thoughts. As I recall the West realy had no vitriol and hate for their East brothers when the AAA MEC was holding to a position of LOS with protections and restrictions. (back during negotiations, before the AAA MEC lost, and the AWA MEC won).

Now that the EC has validated the Nic Award (which does not use DOH at all--a plus for the West) some of the West pilots (and it seems most of them are junior) have gone nearly bat$h!T against their East brothers. Yet, I still have not had any West pilot explain what the East has taken away from them.

Perhaps they are upset that the negotiations aren't progressing quickly, but that is not the fault of the East line pilot. That is up to ALPA and the MECs. Adding to the confusion, the West has repeatedly told the East how the East MEC has failed the AAA pilots repeatedly, and should be replaced. Now that some of the AAA pilots are planning to replace the MEC the West is now upset about that.

The West's anger and vitriol seems to have all erupted in concert with the Nic award. And that is what has me confused. All relevant ruling bodies of ALPA (the EC and the MECs) have agreed that Nic is binding, yet the only cause of the West's anger seems wrapped up in the thought that they don't have the Nic implemented yet.

Nothing has changed. After Nic is implemented will things really change that much? The West is going bat$h!t about changes that are yet to occur in the future. Are the changes really THAT beneficial to them that they are this hateful about not yet receiving them?

So again, what has the East line pilot done to them that elicits such vitriol and hate?

 

[gutshotdraw]

"Paging Dr. Phil, paging Dr. Phil. Detachment from reality syndrome in the FI ward!"

 

[TWA Dude]

The West's anger and vitriol seems to have all erupted in concert with the Nic award. And that is what has me confused.

Confused is an understatement. Are you saying that in your mind, when the Nic Award was revealed the West immediately and irrationally started insulting the Easties? You don't think the East's reaction to the Award didn't somehow provoke a reaction? The Westies are bad guys because we followed the rules and aren't happy that the East isn't?

So again, what has the East line pilot done to them that elicits such vitriol and hate?

You agreed to binding arbitration and now you're doing everything you can to prevent its implementation. Your antics deserve every bit of vitriol received.

 

[Turtle21]

“Didn't the East file a lawsuit against the West?”

One MEC raising a legal question with another MEC is no reason for the two MECs to hate each other, much less a reason for the two line pilot groups to hate each other. No one can deny another their legal options, much less feel justified in hating them for availing themselves of the law.

“the east guys, including you, just don't get it.”

I freely admit I don’t get the hate and vitriol of the West. And frankly the West has no obligation to explain themselves. If they feel no need to justify their personal attacks then I accept their freedom to be tightlipped or snippy about it. But if they expect the East to understand their position and expect the East to do something to help them through their period of anger then they are going to have to explain what it is that we can do for them.

Some have suggested that the AWA pilots are upset about the 300 upgrades that happened in the East this year. Are they going to be upset about the fact that 300-400 upgrades a year are going to happen in the East for the next decade? I wouldn’t think so. I hope it won’t cause hate. The West has their retirements happening as well and I don’t hate the West because they are upgrading.

They seem to be upset that the East isn’t negotiating a pay raise as fast as suits them. But that is strange since the West MEC actually appealed to ALPA and the company to oppose the AAA pilots receiving pay parity--parity the other employee groups have received. How does fighting equal pay help unify to fight for even more equal pay?

They seem to think that opposing the East’s effort to obtain pay parity will force them to be better at negotiating a new CBA. Kinda backwards in my view. Do they really think we will receive huge pay raises? (How big a pay raise (being delayed) is necessary to justify all their hate they have now because the East is supposedly delaying the West from getting it?)

On the 1st of October, Prater called folks to work together to fix the “bargaining and seniority” issues before us. I get the fact that Prater is impotent to explain what the bargaining and seniority issues are. He and his pals have chosen to only acknowledge that they exist, but “can’t” do anything to define them or correct them.

As a pilot I can tell you I am more than ready for our representatives to be men and take the responsibility to represent the pilots that elected them. If they don’t I will vote to replace them, and either way I will be happy to vote on anything my representatives negotiate on our behalf. Eventually the issues will be voted on and I can pledge to live happily ever after.

If lawful representation continues then we all can be (must be) satisfied and will have no justifyable reason for hate.

 

[enigma]

One MEC raising a legal question with another MEC is no reason for the two MECs to hate each other, much less a reason for the two line pilot groups to hate each other. No one can deny another their legal options, much less feel justified in hating them for availing themselves of the law.

Turtle, you can't ignore the perception taken from being sued. You call it a "legal question" but others see it as an attack.

I freely admit I don’t get the hate and vitriol of the West. And frankly the West has no obligation to explain themselves. If they feel no need to justify their personal attacks then I accept their freedom to be tightlipped or snippy about it. But if they expect the East to understand their position and expect the East to do something to help them through their period of anger then they are going to have to explain what it is that we can do for them.

hate - vitriol - ill will - poisonous - hate - hate - will will - hateful - vitriol - hate -anger - erupted - batsheit - vitriol - hate - hate - hate - hate - vitriol - hate - hate - and hate. Feel free to correct me if I missed something in your posts in this thread.

Maybe you need to stop trying to spin the issue, stop mis-characterizing, stop trying to paint the issues with emotions.

I would like to take your arguments seriously, but at face value, they are nothing more than an attempt at misdirection. Can you make an argument without all of the divisive language?

 

[MK82Man]

Turtle – I’m guessing you were flame baiting, but I’ll bite a little. You’ve just got to be kidding. If you look at the AWA posters on this board you will find them to be rational and advocates for “non-spin” thought. TWA Dude is one of our best posters. Calm, Straight Forward, a veteran of TWA who has been through it all.

Nobody at AWA hates the East. Your “Vitriol and Hate” reminds me of Negative Journalism. Get the Headline to move the paper. So only you think we Hate you. Not true by a 100 miles.

But we are significantly upset that the East line pilots want to benefit at our expense. We spent 2 years negotiating, mediating, and arbitrating. The Nic Award was in May and now here we are six months later with no progress. You guys continue to cry how unfair it was. We want to be in business with you, but East won’t honor business agreements. Nic was a contract, but you don’t want to live by the contract. You can’t be in business with a partner that fails to honor business agreements.

What have we lost? Here are a few. No AWA guys can go to the 190 IAW the Transition Agreement because you want to stonewall integration so as many of your FOs can upgrade to Captain system wide. The Transition Agreement was another one of those small little business agreements we had. In writing and we shook hands over it. But now you want to stall its implementation. No AWA guys can go to our 757 Growth Slots IAW our arbitrated decision (and that dang Transition Agreement about growth aircraft) because you guys are “putting up barricades” to merging the Team. No AWA hiring has occurred so that we could recall your 1800 dudes. Every Furloughed Dude at US Air had an opportunity to return to work; meanwhile, 2.5 years later, Dave Odell is still last on our list. We sacrificed our absorption of new hires to get as many of our new East brothers back to work as quickly as possible. We were hiring 10-15 a month and that came to a screeching halt when our Management Team got the financing together to keep US Air in business. Our Management Team paid your payroll the last two weeks to keep you afloat to get the deal together. So here we are 1 year into joint contract talks and where is the East Joint Negotiating Team – Missing in Action, that’s where. You don’t even want to sit down and help craft a new contract for both sides of the house because you want to stall to get your dudes in front of the line. It’s like Grade school and you want to cut to the water fountain, instead of waiting your turn. It is Morally unfair. We have an agreement, the Nic Award, but now you don’t want to live up to it.

We know you’ve had a raw deal for 10 years. Every in the industry has Empathy for you. But it ain’t our fault and we can’t/won’t let you profit on our backs. We are trying to work with you to improve your LOA 93 contract, but you don’t want help …. You guys know best …. What you know is how to let your guys cut in front of the line. If you don’t see the basic injustice that the East guys are creating, just read the posts from the non AWA, non US Air posters. Most see the East pilots as crying over “spilt milk” and threatening to do real harm to our aviation profession by your USAPA pipe-dream. You are taking the airline down a road to disaster and you don’t care what damage that inflicts on the Team Members you have out West.

Nobody is winning here expect for Management. We just want what we (both East and West) agreed to and nothing more. That is not true for the East, you want every East FO to upgrade to Captain and then you will then talk to the West about a new contract. You want to let Management win in the short run, while you capture every opportunity, and when you are done capturing upgrades and every dude in the East is a Captain, they you will work with us. Problem is, then the Recession hits and there is no opportunity for a better contract. But that’s ok because you are all Captains by then. Your MEC failed you as a line pilot in the Nic negotiations by insisting on DOH and now your leadership spouts in the press how unqualified the West Pilots are. Jack Stephen’s comments are just insulting. You won’t see our MEC Chairman making those remarks to the press.


Did you really drive 141s in the Military? If so, here is a parallel for you. TACC says your crew has to go on a 14 day PACAF rotator. On day 13 at Hickham, TACC says, hey you guys are going back out, end date is TBD. Meanwhile back at Travis, an AC buddy of yours gets selected for IP School at Altus because you are on the road flying the Pacific. You scream Foul – I was next in line for IP School. TACC says “oh so sorry, call us from Kadena.” The problem for all of us, is that right now East is keeping the West stuck in the Pacific on a TBD end date.

The biggest mistake was not renaming the airline to something new. It isn’t your airline anymore; it is all of ours, East and West. Right now, only management wins and you guys just don’t care. The next round of Joint contract talks start Monday the 22nd – will the East show up to help us battle management to better both sides or will ya’ll just stay home and battle your West brethren?

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle, you can't ignore the perception taken from being sued. You call it a "legal question" but others see it as an attack.




hate - vitriol - ill will - poisonous - hate - hate - will will - hateful - vitriol - hate -anger - erupted - batsheit - vitriol - hate - hate - hate - hate - vitriol - hate - hate - and hate. Feel free to correct me if I missed something in your posts in this thread.

Maybe you need to stop trying to spin the issue, stop mis-characterizing, stop trying to paint the issues with emotions.

I would like to take your arguments seriously, but at face value, they are nothing more than an attempt at misdirection. Can you make an argument without all of the divisive language?

Terms of endearment brought to you by the loving West pilots...

"Tweedle-Dum"

"Eastholes"

"senile old eastholes"

"viagra and sheep don't mix outside north carolina"

"you guys are the biggest bunch of ***holio's this industry has ever seen!!!"

"Oh shut up."

"You're too old and slow"

"Dumbass"

"Pinhead"

"real idiots"

"Liar"

"shiite face"


"Buttercup"

"ALPA... We put the FUN in Dysfunctional"

 

[Turtle21]

Nobody at AWA hates the East. Your “Vitriol and Hate” … only you think we Hate you. Not true by a 100 miles.

Not according to many West posters, but I can appreciate you tone is different than many.

What have we lost? Here are a few. No AWA guys can go to the 190 IAW the Transition Agreement because you want to stonewall integration so as many of your FOs can upgrade to Captain system wide. The Transition Agreement was another one of those small little business agreements we had. In writing and we shook hands over it. But now you want to stall its implementation.

I have no intention of stalling implementation. I am more than happy to vote on a joint contract so the company can move forward. What is the fastest way to a joint contract that will pass? Part of the agreement is that Nic is meaningless apart from a joint contract ratified by each respective side. Its all one big happy package that can't be seperated.

No AWA hiring has occurred so that we could recall your 1800 dudes. Every Furloughed Dude at US Air had an opportunity to return to work; meanwhile, 2.5 years later, Dave Odell is still last on our list. We sacrificed our absorption of new hires to get as many of our new East brothers back to work as quickly as possible.

AWA hasn’t withheld hiring for AAA pilots. 300-400 USAir pilots have been retiring each year for several years and AAA pilots have been forced to fly nearly 95 hours a month to make up for it for a couple years because Dougweiser hasn’t brought back the furloughs when he should have. AWA pilots have given nothing up to support the recall letters to 1800 pilots.

…You want every East FO to upgrade to Captain..

No AAA pilot is moving out east to upgrade. All 300 upgrades this year were on East metal. This really seems to be the issue. West pilots have a sense of entitlement to upgrades they didn’t bring, but were supposedly given to them by Nicolau, but are allegedly being denied them by the East.

Whatever results that Nicolau may or may not have dictated I think every pilot will have to evaluate on their own and vote accordingly in whatever issues come up for a vote.