Visual Approach Procedure

[h25b]

O.K. gang, opinions welcome... I just got back on a late night arrival and while I wait for my 2 mo. old son to go to sleep (Lord willing) approach really pi$$ed me off this evening so I thought I'd poll the audience.

Coming in (especially late at night) on clear evenings I'll typically set-up the FMS to fly to a point on a 3 mile final to the planned runway. When we check in to approach (keep in mind this is at 0100, YES A.M....) the controller tells us to expect the visual (which I already had set-up in the box and was proceeding to a fix as described above). He instructs us to call the field for the visual. About 9 miles out just as we were about to call the field he tells us to fly direct to the airport as we were off heading (no $hit Sherlock) to which I answer by reporting the field in sight. He answers back with a "cleared for the visual, but fly direct to the field..." Now at this point we're set up perfectly (thanks to my planning ahead) for a left base so I tell him we're on a left base. Now he's miffed and tells me we should have let him know before turning... For crying out loud man, we had been the only aircraft on frequency from Atlanta!!! The only time in 6 years of flying jets I have ever seen a controller be anything but happy that we had our act together. They're usually ticked off when you're flying directly over the field without the runway in sight.

Just wandering what other guys/gals do in such situations. I realize what I do is not exactly by the book, but good grief. The acronym "B.F.D." came to mind as I was interacting with this guy. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly he was expecting me to do. Evidently he was looking for me to perform an overhead break... This is probably the same controller that gets P.O.'d when it's a little hazy and can't quite get the field so you request an ILS.

Opinions welcome, I guess from now on I'll fly direct to the numbers and what will be, will be ???

 

[andpcl]

"Good morning approach, King Air 123AB, outta 10 for 6 with infomation B. Would like to proceed to a point x miles on the final, if ok with you? Thanks"

It's their video game.

 

[GravityHater]

"Ok, but if I continue direct to the field there is no way I can get lined up for the approach"

 

[fokkerjet]

"Good morning approach, King Air 123AB, outta 10 for 6 with infomation B. Would like to proceed to a point x miles on the final, if ok with you? Thanks"

It's their video game.

Same thing; I'll ask to go direct to the marker, or something to that affect.

 

[avbug]

Agreed...If I've been cleared direct destination, I go direct to the destination (not a fix near the destination). If I want something else prior to accepting a visual, then I'll request it.

Early requests are always appreciated, so long as you're talking to the appropriate controller.

 

[Chocks]

Maybe there was something weird going on...military activity on UHF or discret freq? Sounds like something was bothering him. I usually do the same thing..cheat a little for a 3 mi or so final. (Usually set up for a left modified base turn...Navy habits die hard)

 

[andpcl]

Sometimes, on a transcon redeye, we get cleared direct EWR. OK, then one or two center controllers before approach, I ask for the point away from the airport that I would like to fly towards. They uually ask the approach controller on the landline. So no surprises for anyone.

 

[h25b]

I know it's their video game and what I was doing was technically a "no,no".. .I was just curious if what I was doing was completely out of the ordinary. I don't think it is. I'll just walk the straight/narrow and just ask from now on. Like I said, in 6 yrs. this is the first I've had a word said.

Now I'll surely get the "for God's sake just go ahead and do it" attitude when I bother them by requesting...

 

[CAVOK69]

Yes it makes it easier on you, but personally I don't do it, the guy I fly with does it all of the time and they never say anything. Its just my preference not to do that.

I am sure you did it the one time out of a hundred that they would say somethign about it.

 

[satpak77]

1 AM approach into the airport? You are already tired and behind the clock. Nobody else in the area. You crash, controller gets relieved of the console, and you die

Me?

Ah sir, doing XYZ works out for us best, traffic allowing (no traffic in area)

 

[FL350]

Well how is that for being shot down? What you did is not unheard of but I do usually give the controller a heads up.

 

[h25b]

Well how is that for being shot down? What you did is not unheard of but I do usually give the controller a heads up.

I wasn't looking for any kind of affirmation or support. I know for a fact that this is fairly common practice. I was just polling the audience to see what people thought. I will now conform to the rules a be a good little boy and just ask. I got called out and was just seeing if anyone else had ever had the same experience.

I still am amazed that the controller cared... Especially since it was after the tower was closed and we're essentially flying on to an uncontrolled field. It would seem that going ahead and getting prepared for a left base entry would be what anyone would do to an uncontrolled field. For the record, I never do this going in to a controlled airport... I just head straight for the field until given directions on traffic pattern entry.

Any other comments..???...

 

[FL350]

Yeah, here's a comment - relax. I wasn't attacking you, just kidding around. Bet you're a load of fun to fly with.

 

[lumcevac]

sounds like your controller was feeling a bit insecure and bored. cleared for the visual absent any reference to proceeding traffic or more specific instructions such as "proceed direct to the airport to enter a left downwind," report established downwind" ect.means you are cleared to make a visual approach under your own nav using normal maneuvers to align the aircraft in a position in which to land. proceeding to a point on three mile final is certainly not abnormal as long as you were approaching from a reasonable angle. the only hangup would be if there were noise abatement procedures that would conflict with your positioning. most of us have experienced the occasional '"grumpy" controller. thankfully this is the exception as opposed to the rule. no worries.

 

[Singlecoil]

Why didn't you just cancel? Maybe that's what he was looking for. You were part 91, right?

 

[bigD]

Well lumcevac, the difference is that he wasn't actually cleared for the visual, he was told to expect the visual. So technically, he should have still gone direct to the airport.

But I see this kind of thing done all the time, and I think *most* controllers don't see it as a big deal, although I suppose it could be a big deal if for some reason it caused a conflict.

 

[lumcevac]

did i misread?

He answers back with a "cleared for the visual, but fly direct to the field..."

 

[bigD]

did i misread?

Nope, but I thought the point of contention was his flying the plane to a fix on final before he was cleared for the visual approach.

 

[lumcevac]

you are correct, however may we agree that with no other traffic on freq at 0100 am and tower closed it is an unusual circumstance for a controller to chew out a crewmember for what appears to be a normal procedure. if we split hairs i suppose the fact that after he cleared him for the visual he said "but proceed direct to the airport" could have elicited a response such as "I'm in position for a straight in ,is that approved" but seems rather weak to me since the pilot is still the final authority. good food for thought though big d.

 

[h25b]

Nope, but I thought the point of contention was his flying the plane to a fix on final before he was cleared for the visual approach.

I am in fact, a "load of fun" to fly with... I can provide references if you like...

To get the order straight, we were something like 8-9 miles out set-up for a left base entry and just as the F.O. was about to press the mike to call the field the guy points out our indescretion... At that point I immediately called the field in sight knowing full well he was just waiting for the call to clear us for the visual. And yes, as soon as I received visual approach clearance we cancelled. No one was behind us waiting for our cancellation so I know that wasn't his beef.

Again, for the record (and 3rd time to admit it, what I was doing was technically wrong) I'm just curious to see how many out there do what I did. Thought I'd point out that there's some controllers out there that don't like it and there might be some pilots on the board here that would find this experience useful. That's all, now I'll drop it.

Yeah, here's a comment - relax. I wasn't attacking you, just kidding around. Bet you're a load of fun to fly with.

I wasn't biting your head off, I was just reiterating the fact that I realize I was the one in the wrong, not the controller. (although I feel he needed to relax)...

 

[bigD]

I agree lumcevac. It's good food for thought. I don't think we were actually ever disagreeing about anything. Heh!

h25b - I'm not sure that anyone here was getting on your case. I've certainly done this very thing from time to time, and this is the first I've heard where a controller has gotten pissed about it. Your story has, however, forced me to consider the error of my ways!

 

[bigD]

Interestingly, Don Brown's latest article (from Avweb) touches on this very thing. Keep in mind that Don is a center controller, so that may change his perspective a bit:

I've got to go back and touch on a few other points about your clearance limit. Again, let's look at the clearance that started this article.

"Airliner one twenty three, cleared to SHINE, hold northwest, as published, expect further clearance one five three zero."

That clearance changes your clearance limit. It does not change your routing. It does not clear you direct to SHINE. Likewise, an advisory to "... expect radar vectors ILS runway two four Hickory" does not change your routing. Don't use your advanced NAV to slide over towards the intercept point or an IAF. If you were cleared direct to the airport and your routing hasn't been changed, then you are supposed to be flying direct to the airport.

I see both of these errors on a constant basis. I mentioned it to a pilot the other day on the frequency and he didn't seem to appreciate it. I'm going to tell you like I told him: If it keeps happening -- sooner or later -- we won't be talking about it ... we'll be filing paperwork. Lest you forget, I work in a Center. We have the Operational Error Detection Program (a.k.a., "The Snitch Machine"). If you make a turn to someplace without a clearance, get close to another airplane and the machine goes off -- the talking is over. The machine goes off at the manager's desk and an investigation starts.

 

[lumcevac]

It's all good my friend....all good!!

 

[MauleSkinner]

My only comment is that 3 miles seems a little excessive...I prefer a mile or even a little less, and even in busy airspace haven't had anybody complain about that.

I do, however, fly with guys who like the 3 mile fix. I've also flown with a guy who departed Class D on his downwind

Fly safe!

David

 

[BE200Driver]

I fly with a guy who when given "direct" to an airport will go direct to a local VOR or nav facility if VOR is not present. I've tried to get him out of this as I am sick of explaining to ATC where we are going. Not a big deal if the VOR is terminal but I'm sick of 17 miles off of direct for his insecurities.

This guy also can't seem to figure out how to fly anything published. When told to fly 090 to intercept an outbound radial on an arrival, leading to xxxxx intersection he will hit "direct, enter" and make the turn. Sometimes I wonder how we all survive in this industry. Mid you he is a 16,000 hour guy who knows everything.

 

[satpak77]

again

all solved with "uh, can (tail number) do (insert request) instead, if its not too much trouble?"

insert Texas or Georgia red-neck drawl if PIC on King Air

 

[avbug]

The secret here is to read back all direct clearances to the field as "pretty much." For example, "XXX321, Cleared direct Dodge City."

The appropriate response is "XXX321, cleared pretty much dodge." This may also be supplemented, or exchanged with "more or less," or the less-desirable, "generally." When a later controller asks if you were cleared direct XXX airport or WONSA, you can say "I heard we were generally cleared pretty much XXX, more or less, that okay with you?"

A quick visit to the pilot-controller glossary will reveal that the proper controller response is "Roger, whatever." If the controller gets upset, makes threats, or tells you anything resembling "no," then it's best to just do what he says, so nobody gets hurt.

This works the same for altitude assignments. Always preface an altitude readback with "about." Controllers love that. "XXX, PD to about two three zero." "Left heading about two seventy, climb and maintain about three five zero, more or less."

You get the idea. Never commit to anything. Also, be certain to answer queries with questions. "XXX, say assigned altitude."

The appropriate response is "XXX, what altitude do you think we were assigned," or the more personal, "how do you feel about this altitude?"

When frequency congestion isn't an issue, an intellectual discussion on the matter is also appropriate. "XXX, say assigned altitude."

"XXX, what does assigned really mean, and how does it relate to the bigger question; why are we here?"

During especially heavy frequency congestion, controllers prefer crisp, quick responses. "XXX, say assigned altitude."

"XXX, Assigned Altitude."

On those rare occasions that any of these approved tactics don't work, you can always just turn off the transponder. Then, in a foriegn accent, quickly call the controller on the same frequency and say "Hockatok control, Wunderbar Six Tree Tree Niner ist peeking up ana Ee, El, Tee, und sees a rahtha largish bowl of fiher duwn beelow." Then land, before the jig is up.

Or, you could just proceed to the destination, and make your request for any deviations the old fashioned way.

 

[Singlecoil]

I fly with a guy who when given "direct" to an airport will go direct to a local VOR or nav facility if VOR is not present. I've tried to get him out of this as I am sick of explaining to ATC where we are going. Not a big deal if the VOR is terminal but I'm sick of 17 miles off of direct for his insecurities.

This guy also can't seem to figure out how to fly anything published. When told to fly 090 to intercept an outbound radial on an arrival, leading to xxxxx intersection he will hit "direct, enter" and make the turn. Sometimes I wonder how we all survive in this industry. Mid you he is a 16,000 hour guy who knows everything.

I would be driven up the wall by that. I feel your pain.

 

[Pilot_Ryan]

Again, for the record (and 3rd time to admit it, what I was doing was technically wrong) I'm just curious to see how many out there do what I did. Thought I'd point out that there's some controllers out there that don't like it and there might be some pilots on the board here that would find this experience useful. That's all, now I'll drop it.

Yeah, we do it all the time in our Hawker too (tell the FMS to go direct to the FAF or, if flying the visual, a point derived off the rwy centerline 5nm out) when instructed to proceed 'direct' to the airport. Haven't been slapped for doing so, although I agree it's probably 'technically' wrong, but give me a break. BFD is right.

 

[AA717driver]

Most controllers at my home airport know my voice so they figure if I'm within 3 miles either side of the airport on a visual, I'm having a good day... And so are they! TC