Visual Approach Procedure

[bigD]

I agree lumcevac. It's good food for thought. I don't think we were actually ever disagreeing about anything. Heh!

h25b - I'm not sure that anyone here was getting on your case. I've certainly done this very thing from time to time, and this is the first I've heard where a controller has gotten pissed about it. Your story has, however, forced me to consider the error of my ways!

 

[bigD]

Interestingly, Don Brown's latest article (from Avweb) touches on this very thing. Keep in mind that Don is a center controller, so that may change his perspective a bit:

I've got to go back and touch on a few other points about your clearance limit. Again, let's look at the clearance that started this article.

"Airliner one twenty three, cleared to SHINE, hold northwest, as published, expect further clearance one five three zero."

That clearance changes your clearance limit. It does not change your routing. It does not clear you direct to SHINE. Likewise, an advisory to "... expect radar vectors ILS runway two four Hickory" does not change your routing. Don't use your advanced NAV to slide over towards the intercept point or an IAF. If you were cleared direct to the airport and your routing hasn't been changed, then you are supposed to be flying direct to the airport.

I see both of these errors on a constant basis. I mentioned it to a pilot the other day on the frequency and he didn't seem to appreciate it. I'm going to tell you like I told him: If it keeps happening -- sooner or later -- we won't be talking about it ... we'll be filing paperwork. Lest you forget, I work in a Center. We have the Operational Error Detection Program (a.k.a., "The Snitch Machine"). If you make a turn to someplace without a clearance, get close to another airplane and the machine goes off -- the talking is over. The machine goes off at the manager's desk and an investigation starts.

 

[lumcevac]

It's all good my friend....all good!!

 

[MauleSkinner]

My only comment is that 3 miles seems a little excessive...I prefer a mile or even a little less, and even in busy airspace haven't had anybody complain about that.

I do, however, fly with guys who like the 3 mile fix. I've also flown with a guy who departed Class D on his downwind

Fly safe!

David

 

[BE200Driver]

I fly with a guy who when given "direct" to an airport will go direct to a local VOR or nav facility if VOR is not present. I've tried to get him out of this as I am sick of explaining to ATC where we are going. Not a big deal if the VOR is terminal but I'm sick of 17 miles off of direct for his insecurities.

This guy also can't seem to figure out how to fly anything published. When told to fly 090 to intercept an outbound radial on an arrival, leading to xxxxx intersection he will hit "direct, enter" and make the turn. Sometimes I wonder how we all survive in this industry. Mid you he is a 16,000 hour guy who knows everything.

 

[satpak77]

again

all solved with "uh, can (tail number) do (insert request) instead, if its not too much trouble?"

insert Texas or Georgia red-neck drawl if PIC on King Air

 

[avbug]

The secret here is to read back all direct clearances to the field as "pretty much." For example, "XXX321, Cleared direct Dodge City."

The appropriate response is "XXX321, cleared pretty much dodge." This may also be supplemented, or exchanged with "more or less," or the less-desirable, "generally." When a later controller asks if you were cleared direct XXX airport or WONSA, you can say "I heard we were generally cleared pretty much XXX, more or less, that okay with you?"

A quick visit to the pilot-controller glossary will reveal that the proper controller response is "Roger, whatever." If the controller gets upset, makes threats, or tells you anything resembling "no," then it's best to just do what he says, so nobody gets hurt.

This works the same for altitude assignments. Always preface an altitude readback with "about." Controllers love that. "XXX, PD to about two three zero." "Left heading about two seventy, climb and maintain about three five zero, more or less."

You get the idea. Never commit to anything. Also, be certain to answer queries with questions. "XXX, say assigned altitude."

The appropriate response is "XXX, what altitude do you think we were assigned," or the more personal, "how do you feel about this altitude?"

When frequency congestion isn't an issue, an intellectual discussion on the matter is also appropriate. "XXX, say assigned altitude."

"XXX, what does assigned really mean, and how does it relate to the bigger question; why are we here?"

During especially heavy frequency congestion, controllers prefer crisp, quick responses. "XXX, say assigned altitude."

"XXX, Assigned Altitude."

On those rare occasions that any of these approved tactics don't work, you can always just turn off the transponder. Then, in a foriegn accent, quickly call the controller on the same frequency and say "Hockatok control, Wunderbar Six Tree Tree Niner ist peeking up ana Ee, El, Tee, und sees a rahtha largish bowl of fiher duwn beelow." Then land, before the jig is up.

Or, you could just proceed to the destination, and make your request for any deviations the old fashioned way.

 

[Singlecoil]

I fly with a guy who when given "direct" to an airport will go direct to a local VOR or nav facility if VOR is not present. I've tried to get him out of this as I am sick of explaining to ATC where we are going. Not a big deal if the VOR is terminal but I'm sick of 17 miles off of direct for his insecurities.

This guy also can't seem to figure out how to fly anything published. When told to fly 090 to intercept an outbound radial on an arrival, leading to xxxxx intersection he will hit "direct, enter" and make the turn. Sometimes I wonder how we all survive in this industry. Mid you he is a 16,000 hour guy who knows everything.

I would be driven up the wall by that. I feel your pain.

 

[Pilot_Ryan]

Again, for the record (and 3rd time to admit it, what I was doing was technically wrong) I'm just curious to see how many out there do what I did. Thought I'd point out that there's some controllers out there that don't like it and there might be some pilots on the board here that would find this experience useful. That's all, now I'll drop it.

Yeah, we do it all the time in our Hawker too (tell the FMS to go direct to the FAF or, if flying the visual, a point derived off the rwy centerline 5nm out) when instructed to proceed 'direct' to the airport. Haven't been slapped for doing so, although I agree it's probably 'technically' wrong, but give me a break. BFD is right.

 

[AA717driver]

Most controllers at my home airport know my voice so they figure if I'm within 3 miles either side of the airport on a visual, I'm having a good day... And so are they! TC

 

[h25b]

Most controllers at my home airport know my voice so they figure if I'm within 3 miles either side of the airport on a visual, I'm having a good day... And so are they! TC

Indy approach never had a problem with it going in to BAK... We must have been dealing with the same set of controllers...

 

[PilotChapin]

Indy approach never had a problem with it going in to BAK... We must have been dealing with the same set of controllers...

I can see what you're saying... I do the exact same thing everytime in the Gulfstream and Lear, you have to get your self set up on a good base let in a Jet....there's no way in HELL you can go directly to the airport without setting up a nice 5 or so mile base and think that you wont hit something on the ground. What you did is right, and there's nothing wrong with it....I think the controller wasnt paying attention. The only thing I have to say is that if you know you're right and you've done it before then why complicate your life over it? I've had controllers get on my nerves many times before but I just let it go and didint make a big deal of it...you need to take a breath, chill and learn how to let go dude....did your FO get as pissed off? if not, then I feel kinda sorry for the guy for flying with such a grumpy old captain....PEACE!!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Why didn't you just cancel? Maybe that's what he was looking for. You were part 91, right?

I agree. Not having been there and not knowing what was going on, I would have been tempted to say, "Airport in sight, cancel IFR, how 'bout a frequency change?"

'Sled

 

[h25b]

...did your FO get as pissed off? if not, then I feel kinda sorry for the guy for flying with such a grumpy old captain....PEACE!!!

Gee, I didn't think I was that nerved about it... Can't ANYONE READ ??? The whole point of this thread was the fact that I have seen many people do this same thing and I thought those would find this experience interesting...(I think this is the 3rd time I've explained myself)

I guess I should go back to the normal pointless jargon that exists on these boards. Maybe "pi$$ed" was a poor choice of words, "baffled" was more the correct phraseology...

And for crying out loud, I just turned 30... Is that old nowadays???

 

[PilotChapin]

Gee, I didn't think I was that nerved about it... Can't ANYONE READ ??? The whole point of this thread was the fact that I have seen many people do this same thing and I thought those would find this experience interesting...(I think this is the 3rd time I've explained myself)

I guess I should go back to the normal pointless jargon that exists on these boards. Maybe "pi$$ed" was a poor choice of words, "baffled" was more the correct phraseology...

And for crying out loud, I just turned 30... Is that old nowadays???

Dang 30 year old grump, feel sorry for whoever is your FO at 50 HA!

 

[h25b]

Dang 30 year old grump, feel sorry for whoever is your FO at 50 HA!

Probably be dead of heart attack well before then...

 

[PilotChapin]

Probably be dead of heart attack well before then...

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! you and me both my son! how did your FO take it with the controller?

 

[h25b]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! you and me both my son! how did your FO take it with the controller?

He was as "baffled" as I was.. We were both amazed... Funny thing was he's brand spank'n new with us.. I just hired him, he's a really good "kid" and I had just told him about 2 days prior how this was "no big deal"... Hilarious...

 

[PilotChapin]

He was as "baffled" as I was.. We were both amazed... Funny thing was he's brand spank'n new with us.. I just hired him, he's a really good "kid" and I had just told him about 2 days prior how this was "no big deal"... Hilarious...

HA!! yeah, sometimes uis older farts have to set a good example for the young ones...is your FO alot younger? I flew once with a guy about 20 years younger than me who was a total dik and was trying to teach me about an airplane I've been flying for 5 years and he'd been flying for 2 months...aint that a B...I havent had good experience with really young guys, most of them have been hot shots and a bunch of "show up late" slackers.

 

[h25b]

HA!! yeah, sometimes uis older farts have to set a good example for the young ones...is your FO alot younger? I flew once with a guy about 20 years younger than me who was a total dik and was trying to teach me about an airplane I've been flying for 5 years and he'd been flying for 2 months...aint that a B...I havent had good experience with really young guys, most of them have been hot shots and a bunch of "show up late" slackers.

He's 22, incredibly hard worker, shows up, gets er done... There are still a few good, young pilots out there to be had. My first corporate job was at 23 right in to Hawker 800s. It's nice to get to see someone else as enthused as I was... Give him time though and he'll be 30 and grumpy just like me. He'll be ruined for life in no time...