Virgin America Info?

[Pilotbob3]

My point Lear, is that if you are hired at VA within the next year, you will most likely be in the left seat before the end of that year. It also would put you in the top of the pilot group for your ENTIRE career which means better QOL.
Very few get the opportunity to start up a good company. Look at the upper echelon of the JetBlue group. You can stay where ever you are, but I will not throw stones at a glass house when Every ALPA carrier has Caved one way or the other! I have friends over there and do not fault them for their choice. Why run to a Major now when they will be furloughed within a year...if these mergers get approved, which they will. YOUR CHOICE!!

Enjoy your 3 year "Entire Career" at VA!!!

 

[whymeworry?]

Hasn't Jetblue been around 5 years....that would be your third...they seem to be doing pretty well.

Look at their financials. They are a very poor performer. They can't seem to make any money, gee... I wonder why?

 

[whymeworry?]

Kind of sounds like the argument of why Southwest's Business model will NEVER WORK! Analysts like yourself lose site of the big picture!
1) Branson has been waiting years too get into the American market. He will do and spend whatever it takes to keep the airline going. Don't forget that it is his 3rd airline...all of which are doing very well.
2) He has the LARGEST WAR CHEST of any airline EVER started!
3) The pilot cost is nearly ZERO due to the fact that he is getting the training from Airbus FOR FREE!!!
4) His bigger picture is too change the face of domestic airtravel...using the JetBlue model and amping it up another notch.
5) Don't forget about Virgin Galactic. That is right, the space travel is just the tip of the iceberg.
Virgin America is going to force every airline in the US to UP THE ANTEE with their domestic product or fall by the way-side! Only time will tell, but judging from his other ventures I dare say he will have continued success in the Airline business.

1) Not exactly true. Branson needed Singapore Airlines to buy 49%. If he was doing so well, he wouldn't have needed the cash. He Aussie operation, while launched has been a less-than-stellar performer.

2) That depends on what you call, "started". XJT was the largest airline IPO in history $1 billion raised.

3) Again, not exactly true. All that back office support required to hire and retain a pilot costs money. It is not a ZERO cost item. Believe me, recruitment costs are significant in the skilled-labor retention equation. Furthermore, if indeed Airbus pays for training with the purchase of the jet, they are still paying for it. The price has just been wrapped into the purchase price. Its sort of like when you buy a car for 0% financing. That zero percent is based on a purchase price in a specific range. If you instead want to bargin the dealer down to $300 over invoice, you won't get the 0% deal. In business, you pay or you pay... nothing is free. Common sense, really.

4) The Jblu model is broken. Again, you can't make money in a high-cost industry like airlines unless you charge enough for your product. Eventually, all those cheap seats translate into losses.

Amping it up a notch? You mean like blue LED lighting and Virgin inflight gimmicks? Come on, this is a business, not a marketing excercise. You can lay all the games you want with image but if oil continues to remain where it is, which it will, you have to charge at least the cost of your product, LCCs can't seem to do that as yet.

5) Yeah, whatever. Space travel in a 4-seater jet vehicle. Sure.

The one thing VA has in common with all the other Virgin entities is the pay. Branson continues to pay poorly even in the US. Considering the strong brand recognition, people like yourself feel it's better to work for less if part of a large corporate identity.

Tragic.

 

[clippyrip]

If VA stays around they will migrate to industry standard

Really. Will that happen when there is another startup with pilots(like you) willing to undercut the undercut you took to fly a big plane?

Try respecting the industry....

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Try respecting the industry....

Respect the industry:laugh:

That's rich.

 

[Green Banana]

Really. Will that happen when there is another startup with pilots(like you) willing to undercut the undercut you took to fly a big plane?

Try respecting the industry....

I am already flying at a "Major" in a larger plane than VA. No matter how you crack it, I will make more at VA in the left seat than where I am in the right for 12 more years.

 

[clippyrip]

Good luck with that.......

 

[BigMeat]

Glimmer...are you on CRACK? Have you witnessed the amount of service lately here in the US? Obviously not! Here is an example....(hi, have a crappy snack pack full of SH!T or better yet...NOTHING for the next 4-6 hour flight.) Yeah...we are bringing it back to a glimmer alright. Not to mention that the ole hag handing you the food is already receiving Social Security. Nice try...go back to flying your little King air!

King Air? You mean the BE1900? Yes I am guilty....I flew it so well I could fly it in my sleep with my hands tied behind my back wearing my underwear backwards! 4-6 hours without a snack? You need to fly Continental instead of United and you well get a warm meal (bring pepcid). Yes I do fly for them, yes they are better than VA and Skybus, and yes they are hiring along with NWA, USAIR, Delta, United etc. Dont sell yourself short. Even if you do get a 50% raise there you will not make respectable wage.

 

[dickie q]

CAL, NWA, UAL, USAir.....yep, nice fat respectable first year wage!

 

[Dizel8]

4) The Jblu model is broken.

JBLU just posted full year profit!

 

[Dizel8]

As for the bearded one, don't forget Virgin Express, although he was one of the first LCCs in EU, it cratered.

 

[dude100]

Economists are frequently wrong.

IMO, Virgin, in its present form, will NOT make it.

Why?

1) No air carrier in history has been successful over the long term by making its labor force bear the costs of the operation. READ: Extremely low pay helps propel the airline to the next level but eventually that poor treatment of employees in a service industry translates to the frontlines and the product suffers.

2) You can't make money in this high oil environment by charging $88 a seat out of SFO. It simply can't be done. Eventually Branson's investors, along with the emloyees, will stop subsidizing people's air travel and stop supporting management's rather uncreative business plan. Reference JBlu... they cannot make money as an airline because their business model is built on cheap fares. You can't continue to lose money forever. In a capitalist society, profit always prevails over all else. Creative destruction results in weaker businesses and industries failing which supports the stronger more innovative models.

3) The training and recruitment costs for any airline are enormous. $30-$50,000 per pilot depending on the carrier. If you create an environment where professional aviators use your company as a revolving door (read: training center) the constant turnover will cost you millions on an annual basis. By this I mean pilots join VA to get the 320 type and flt time then move on when a better opportunity comes along. If you don't pay enough for the retention of your most skilled labor group, it is going to be financially painful in the long run. Couple this with the added dynamic that low-fare/ start-up carriers pay higher salaries to new-hires than the legacy carriers, and one could make the argument that indeed recruitment and training are higher-than-average costs for the start-ups.

All that said, shouldn't this thread be on the LCC boards?

You have some valid points which may be true referring to an old economic business model. We are now entering a new era of global business which our current and future governments will support. It is a scary time for all of us and VA is just the beginning for this business sector. I believe that US born companies will benefit too from this new evolution of global markets.

 

[Lear70]

You have some valid points which may be true referring to an old economic business model. We are now entering a new era of global business which our current and future governments will support. It is a scary time for all of us and VA is just the beginning for this business sector. I believe that US born companies will benefit too from this new evolution of global markets.

Management might benefit...

Employees are going to continue to take it in the shorts with this "new business model". Been moving that way for years, and the more we get into this "new business model", the worse our salaries and QOL get.

It's not rocket science.

 

[SuperFLUF]

I'm sorry....just how is Virgin lowering the bar any lower than the regional airlines already are??? It seems that Virgin pays more and offers more than most regionals...Let's face it, there are alot of RJ's flying routes that used to be flown by major airlines, and that has severely lowered the bar in this industry. It was one thing when regionals were flying from ORD to podunk Iowa, but now they are flying major city to major city with pilots earning a small fraction of what the majors were making...that is what is undercutting the industry.

Dude, don't try logic. It doesn't get through.

 

[Lear70]

Dude, don't try logic. It doesn't get through.

Hello boys and girls. Today's word is "rationalizing". We're going to use "rationalizing" in a sentence...

The *REASON* the regionals flew bigger and bigger equipment for less and less money is *BECAUSE* people like you kept "rationalizing" the decision to take the position for less and less as the equipment got bigger and bigger.

First it was a Jetstream. Then it was a Saab. Then it was a Beech 1900. Then it was the CRJ. Then it was the E175. Now it's all the way into an Airbus.

When does it end? Where does "regional creep" end and "mainline flying" begin?

Keep "rationalizing" the decision to take these jobs and, eventually, you'll have $95 an hour 747 Captains at Northwest.

Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood lecture is now over.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hello boys and girls. Today's word is "rationalizing". We're going to use "rationalizing" in a sentence...

The *REASON* the regionals flew bigger and bigger equipment for less and less money is *BECAUSE* people like you kept "rationalizing" the decision to take the position for less and less as the equipment got bigger and bigger.

First it was a Jetstream. Then it was a Saab. Then it was a Beech 1900. Then it was the CRJ. Then it was the E175. Now it's all the way into an Airbus.

When does it end? Where does "regional creep" end and "mainline flying" begin?

Keep "rationalizing" the decision to take these jobs and, eventually, you'll have $95 an hour 747 Captains at Northwest.

Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood lecture is now over.

The *reason* this happened was because mainline MECs "sold" the flying after deregulation because they didn't want to fly Metros, Bandits, and 1900s....that was beneath big airline pilots to fly these little airplanes......The regionals then convinced people to fly for them for peanuts because they were "stepping stone" jobs to the real job of big major airline pilot.....Then after the Camel was all the way in the tent, and the mainline jobs started shrinking, those same mainline pilots decided that it wasn't beneath them anymore to fly "little airplanes"....so they decided it was OK to take those jobs back from the regional pilots......

"It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood"......my @$$

 

[OHGOON]

The *reason* this happened was because mainline MECs "sold" the flying after deregulation because they didn't want to fly Metros, Bandits, and 1900s....that was beneath big airline pilots to fly these little airplanes......

Let's not forget who's MECs you're talking about...ALPA. Their Motto has always been, get as much as you can for the senior guys at the expense of the youngens! What a collosal blunder to not accept the RJ into the fold as the entry level jet for the majors back in the day. Another example of short term greed with long term consequences! Morons!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Let's not forget who's MECs you're talking about...ALPA. Their Motto has always been, get as much as you can for the senior guys at the expense of the youngens! What a collosal blunder to not accept the RJ into the fold as the entry level jet for the majors back in the day. Another example of short term greed with long term consequences! Morons!!

It goes back further than that......In the early 80s the Eastern MEC was approached about outsourcing flying to the smaller towns after deregulation.....The Eastern MEC wasn't interested in flying Metros and "small" airplanes....This was the Camel's nose in the tent...

Randy Babbitt was involved back then and is on record as saying this was a mistake........

 

[Lear70]

ALPA absolutely recognizes it as a major mistake... one that has caused probably the most damage for a single error in the history of the organization.

That said, as long as people keep flying for peanuts, it'll stay the accepted norm, and "regional creep" will continue.

We have only ourselves to blame if we keep letting the bar get lowered. ALPA may have started it, but they're fighting to improve... what are YOU doing?

(not a slam at one person, it's a rhetorical question meant to get people to re-examine their personal commitment to improving the profession).

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA absolutely recognizes it as a major mistake... one that has caused probably the most damage for a single error in the history of the organization.

That said, as long as people keep flying for peanuts, it'll stay the accepted norm, and "regional creep" will continue.

We have only ourselves to blame if we keep letting the bar get lowered. ALPA may have started it, but they're fighting to improve... what are YOU doing?

(not a slam at one person, it's a rhetorical question meant to get people to re-examine their personal commitment to improving the profession).

I'm going to make about $112,000 flying an ATR this year..... I don't think I am the "problem".....My job is in danger from other cheaper operators......many of whom wear union pins.....including mainline pilots who now want to "take back" my flying......That isn't going to fly.....We can work "together", or we can fight for our own individual best interests.....