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Lear70 said:
Can you name 3 startups in the last decade that have survived more than 5 years?

Low wages don't automatically equal successful company.

Pilot wages are a small part of the cost equation, yet everyone buys into the idea that they're "making the company succesful", and accepting low wages as a result.

Virgin isn't as bad as some (Skybus), but this whole idea of starting over at year 1 scale when you upgrade is complete and pure bullsh*t and needs to stop before the rest of the industry jumps on it as a bargaining chip.
Click to expand...


I can name two... almost. Allegiant and Airtran. Yes, I know that Airtran is older than 10 years but not by alot. Valuejet and Allegiants first group of pilots was making terrible wages and both are doing pretty well now.

As far as going back to year 1 at upgrade, I am not a fan and won't defend it. I think it is wrong and needs to be changed. I am not too concerned about it right now since upgrade is 6-8 MONTHS and not 7-10 YEARS.
 
If people want to talk about Virgin wages undercutting the majors, there was an airline based in PHX that did that for over 20 years and allowed 90 seat jets to operate on their behalf for even lower wages. So this is nothing new. Its a hard fight to keep our salary when you have scum willing to do it for a lot less. 5 more years of this crap and I will retire as planned at 60 and hopefully get to live a few more years.

Marty
 
Abe Froman said:
I can name two... almost. Allegiant and Airtran. Yes, I know that Airtran is older than 10 years but not by alot. Valuejet and Allegiants first group of pilots was making terrible wages and both are doing pretty well now.
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Allegiant certainly qualifies, and I wouldn't say Allegiant is still "doing very well" as far as wages. It sucks, actually, on the CA side of the house especially, and with F/O's not getting longevity raises after Year 4.

They're also part of the problem.

Airtran doesn't qualify, as they have been around quite a bit longer than 10 years. If I remember correctly, they were pariahs of the major airline industry as well with their pay rates before the last contract was signed, just as Virgin pilots are on the receiving end of now...

As far as going back to year 1 at upgrade, I am not a fan and won't defend it. I think it is wrong and needs to be changed. I am not too concerned about it right now since upgrade is 6-8 MONTHS and not 7-10 YEARS.
Click to expand...
And therein lies the problem.

No one is ever concerned about pay issues as long as it doesn't affect them. Then, later, when it gets thrown in their face during negotiations (and it always does), they become angry but, by then, it's far too late to fix the problem.

Skybus is my biggest gripe right now. I actually refused to put my resume in there, even when I was jobless, out of self-respect.

I know I'm worth more than those wages and I refuse to whore myself out for them. I also know that my sense of professional self-worth is in the minority in aviation these days. Too may starry-eyed students out there with Shiny Jet Syndrome...
 
Lear70,

My point is that with both Airtran and Allegiant, they are making steps. Nobody stars out with American Airlines payrates.

Also, what does 10 years really have to do with this discussion. If you want to look at it accurately, you should look at all startups since deregulation. And yes, I agree with you that most will fail and I have worked at several of them. The ones I worked with failed b/c they didn't keep their costs under control, payroll being a huge one.

Also, I told you I didn't like the policy on year 1 pay. No defense of it here. I wasn't going to not take the job over a policy that would not affect me. I'll bet Airtran has a policy or too that you think are crap.
 
I heard Virgin hired some street captains, when right seat F.O.'s found out newly hired Cpt's had less time then they did - well the banana hit the fan! Squawking F.O.'s ended up being let go.
 
Abe Froman said:
Lear70,

My point is that with both Airtran and Allegiant, they are making steps. Nobody stars out with American Airlines payrates.

Also, what does 10 years really have to do with this discussion. If you want to look at it accurately, you should look at all startups since deregulation. And yes, I agree with you that most will fail and I have worked at several of them. The ones I worked with failed b/c they didn't keep their costs under control, payroll being a huge one.

Also, I told you I didn't like the policy on year 1 pay. No defense of it here. I wasn't going to not take the job over a policy that would not affect me. I'll bet Airtran has a policy or too that you think are crap.
Click to expand...
That was Lear's point that you obviously missed twice. You dont care because it's "a policy that would not effect me". Well it effects every pilot at every other airline and those that come in behind you.
 
I hesistate to respone to you because you're obviously not very smart, but here goes. I don't actually fly pipers. next...
 
That never happened to me!

The three toughest years in a pilot's career?


Fifth grade.
 
Tejas-Jet said:
Gee...I thought a "scab" was a person who has crossed a picket line to do struck work.
Click to expand...

True statement. That word is thrown around a little too loosely. I know a few members of the bricklayers/ tile setters union who would snap a pilot in half if they ever were called that.....if untrue that is.

But we're all so brave on this forum eh?
 
IMO, Virgin, in its present form, will NOT make it.

Why?

1) No air carrier in history has been successful over the long term by making its labor force bear the costs of the operation. READ: Extremely low pay helps propel the airline to the next level but eventually that poor treatment of employees in a service industry translates to the frontlines and the product suffers.

2) You can't make money in this high oil environment by charging $88 a seat out of SFO. It simply can't be done. Eventually Branson's investors, along with the emloyees, will stop subsidizing people's air travel and stop supporting management's rather uncreative business plan. Reference JBlu... they cannot make money as an airline because their business model is built on cheap fares. You can't continue to lose money forever. In a capitalist society, profit always prevails over all else. Creative destruction results in weaker businesses and industries failing which supports the stronger more innovative models.

3) The training and recruitment costs for any airline are enormous. $30-$50,000 per pilot depending on the carrier. If you create an environment where professional aviators use your company as a revolving door (read: training center) the constant turnover will cost you millions on an annual basis. By this I mean pilots join VA to get the 320 type and flt time then move on when a better opportunity comes along. If you don't pay enough for the retention of your most skilled labor group, it is going to be financially painful in the long run. Couple this with the added dynamic that low-fare/ start-up carriers pay higher salaries to new-hires than the legacy carriers, and one could make the argument that indeed recruitment and training are higher-than-average costs for the start-ups.

All that said, shouldn't this thread be on the LCC boards?
 
What was Jetblue's starting salaries when they started out 7 years ago?
 
Fairly certain it was around $90-95 an hour, I applied when they first started advertising on the internet in Jan/Feb of 2000 for pilots and vaguely remember that number.

Adjusted for inflation, $90 an hour in 2000 would be $114 an hour today, 1st year pay.
 

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