Virgin America eyes NY, SF.....?

[General Lee]

Reuters
Virgin USA Airline Startup Eyes NY, SF
Monday May 24, 10:24 am ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - British entrepreneur Richard Branson said on Monday the Virgin USA startup airline, which is tentatively set to launch sometime next year, has narrowed its choices for a home city to San Francisco or New York.

Speaking at an entrepreneurs' summit, Branson said the carrier, which does not yet have a name, route structure or airplanes, was considering buying aircraft from Boeing (NYSE:BA - News) or Airbus.

"I can't at this stage confirm whether it's going to be Airbus or Boeing ... I think the airline is going to need about 50 planes," he said.

The United States currently restricts foreign ownership of U.S. airlines, allowing a maximum 25 percent voting stake and 49 percent total equity. Some industry experts have expressed concern about how Branson plans to deal with the restrictions and whether he would truly cede control.

Fred Reid, former president of Delta Air Lines (NYSEAL - News), is spearheading the Virgin USA start-up from New York and is said to be busy trying to line up investors.

"We will not own the airline," Branson said in response to a question about the ownership laws. "It will be owned by American companies, and American companies will run the airline. We will have a stake in the airline -- we will license the Virgin brand to it."

Last month, sources familiar with the matter told Reuters that Virgin USA executives told Boeing Commercial Airplanes executives in Seattle they were out of the running for the airplane order, although they cautioned that jet deals often change up to the last minute.

The Virgin order would likely be the largest order from the United States this year, as most American carriers remain mired in a deep financial downturn and are not thinking about buying planes but rather just trying to make money.

Airbus, based in Toulouse, France, is 80-percent owned by the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co. NV (Paris:EAD.PA - News; XETRA:EAD.DE - News), with the remaining 20 percent held by British aerospace and defense industries group BAE Systems plc (London:BA.L - News).




First of all, which NYC airport is possible? And, how would another large LCC affect Jetblue in NYC? What happened to BOS?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

How would that affect Jetblue if NYC was chosen? LGA and EWR seem to be full.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

How will it affect Song?

Well, starting up a LCC in an area already being used as a "hub" by two LCC's, Song and jetblue sounds like gutsy move, but wise? Maybe he will buy Song

Branson is a smart man, but if I were to start an LCC, I would not base it in JFK, DAL, ATL, MDW etc. I would probably go looking for some place with a large population and less access to low fares.

Sure he can compete, and if his cost is low enough, even beat jetblue. You can beat SWA, if your coffers are deep and you can fly for less, heck, you can do it even if your cost is higher. Just depends on how much of a loss you are willing to take and how long you can aford to take it.

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,

Good try at trying to turn that around. Song doesn't really have the NYC base as Jetblue does, and it also hits all three airports. Jetblue has really avoided all LCC competition--it is true. I think the only direct competition Jetblue has is with Song on FLA and LAS routes from JFK and BOS--and AWA from JFK to LAS. That's really about it. I don't think Jetblue competes directly with Southwest at all. That probably is a smart plan, but eventually the LCCs will grow and go after that same low fare passenger. Sure, that will affect Delta too---but we seem to be defending our hubs--and have large connections with hundreds of RJs from places that LCCs will probably not frequent. Song will stay in there and compete with you--and then it will be interesting to see where Virgin USA would go from JFK (I assume) against you guys. (Probably not LGB) Sure, they could also choose SFO---but with the common wx delays--they might just make it a smaller hub---or "focus city" like you guys call it. It will be interesting.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

General, I am disppointed.

It was not a question of turning it around, but if VUSA was to start up in JFK, you do not think it would affect Delta in general and Song in particular?

Song has no "base" in NYC?. Wow, could have fooled me. You think if VUSA were to show up in JFK, that Song would not feel competetive pressure? As a matter of fact, one could almost speculate, that Song would be the first victim.

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,

I too am disappointed. Delta's hub at JFk is primarily a INTL hub that has passenger connections from Europe. That is why we only have 3 or so flights to LA, 2 to SFO, 1 to LAS(mainline vs Song), 2 to SJU, 2 to DEN, and a bunch of RJs that leave after the INTL widebodies come in around 3pm or so. I think you would have known that---you probably see our 767ERs all of the time---mainly leaving for Europe after 5 pm. Come on. Song does have a good presence at JFK---but mainly to FLL, PBI, RSW, MCO, TPA, and one flight a night to LAS (one that I have done a few times). The rest of Song out of NYC is mainly out of LGA--with service to all of the same cities, and a few flights out of EWR---4 to MCO and 1 to FLL. Song has more flights from BOS and BDL.

The rest of Delta's flights out of NYC consist of the Shuttle out of LGA to DCA and BOS, and hub connecting flights to ATL, CVG, DFW, and SLC. Comair also has a strong presence out of LGA---going to JAX, RDU, SAV, BNA, CHM, etc......That is it.

As far as how a Virgin America start up in JFK would affect us---probably somewhat----competing directly with us to FLA and some West Coast stuff. But as I said--most of our NYC traffic is feed to our hubs--and those Pax continue on to connecting cities. The main feed for our JFK flights domestically comes from our over stuffed European connections. Virgin might connect some pax from London---but we can't even fly to London from NYC--since only AA and UA can fly to London heathrow from the USA, and CO flies to LGW from EWR.

So, again, how might a presence of another LCC at JFK hurt Jetblue? It could, and I think Fred Reid might still hold a grudge on your CEO. I think you and Virgin would be fighting over the same NYC passengers----along with Song to FLA---and the rest of us would be connecting passengers through NYC. It will be interesting to see which base is chosen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[a320drivr]

Branson flew jetblue today from JFK to SJU. Must be checking things out.

 

[lowecur]

general

So, again, how might a presence of another LCC at JFK hurt Jetblue? It could, and I think Fred Reid might still hold a grudge on your CEO. I think you and Virgin would be fighting over the same NYC passengers----along with Song to FLA---and the rest of us would be connecting passengers through NYC. It will be interesting to see which base is chosen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Don't believe anything Branson has to say at this point. He wants everyone guessing, and he's more than happy to add fuel to the fires.

First he said Boeing was out of the bidding, now they are very close to Abus. New York was never really in the bidding, and now they are. Branson may have made a mistake by naming his CEO so soon. Just how do you think that looks to regulators that want to see 51% USA ownership and control?

B6 owns JFK! They will get the additional slots they want and don't be a bit surprised to see them offer international routes at some time in the not too distant future.

Incidently, I went to a stockholders meeting for one of my investments in NYC this past Wed. I caught the 1:45pm Song flight back to PBI. I was pleasantly surprised. Not bad!!

 

[General Lee]

Lowecur,

First of all, thanks for contributing to my mortgage. I hope you did like Song---I think it is a good product, as long as you can put up with some of the corny things the stews say on the PA. The seats are nice, the Dish network TVs are nice, and if you help your fellow pax with his/her bags--you could get a free ticket for the slow period (Sep-Nov). Did you try an $8 sandwich? They are good, believe it or not.

I would think that someone in NYC would be happy to have another LCC at JFK--and we all know that JFK is under utilized except for about 3 hours each day. (5pm to 8pm) I can't see anyone else at LGA, and EWR is called the "sewark" for a reason---long takeoff lines and not a lot of extra space at the terminals.
I think JFK is the logical choice if they are going to pick NY as a primary hub. Jetblue will be the primary loser if that was the case, since most of the other airlines at JFK have INTL connections in place primarily. Also, Fred Reid never really liked Neeleman and maybe---just maybe---he is going after him. Also, NYC is the largest city in the world and has potential. If the gates are tied up at LGA---JFK is next.

Thanks again for flying Song.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

If Fred Reid is making business decisions based upon a grudge against Neeleman, then I wish Branson good luck! On the other hand, Reid is well aware of the true cost and strenght of Song, perhaps he might just bite the hand that fed him.

I see the big loser being the "LCC" with the higher cost, whether it be based in EWR, LGA or JFK.

Keep eating those $8 sandwiches, DAL needs the proceeds

 

[a320drivr]

May 24, 2004--The new US airline that Richard Branson is planning must meet US regulations on foreign ownership for it to get off the ground.

According to a Reuters report, if Branson is the source of the capital used to establish the new airline, ownership requirements may not be met.

"Since we require US citizenship to own the majority interest in a US airline, if Mr. Branson were to use his capital to establish a Virgin Express in the United States... the test he's going to have to be able to meet is, is it a US citizen that controls the airline," said Norm Mineta, United States Transportation Secretary.

Branson has already recruited former Delta executive Fred Reid in to run the company. He is also in talks with Airbus to acquire new aircraft. (see “Delta president to run Virgin USA,” FLTops TODAY archives, March 12, 2004).

 

[General Lee]

Those $8 sandwiches are probably a lot better than those blue potato chips! And, we make money off of ours. But hey Dizel, try not to get too testy here---I was just throwing out a question about what might happen to Jetblue if Virgin st up a base at JFK also. There is a possibility that Jetblue might have some real competition---and not just to FLA and LAS from Song. That could be serious for you guys---and we can't over look that.....We have stiff competition from a lot of LCCs----and we just need to come up with a good plan now--which is being hammered out. I am sure Reid learned a lot from Song---and he knows also that it is doing better after the first year of service. Even you guys had a lean couple of years at first.....

And, I think Reid will get new airplanes with incentives (just like you guys)---and then they may have lower costs than you! Wouldn't that be a twist? But hey--they may choose SFO...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[G4G5]

What you need to keep in mind is that Branson is looking to connect his passengers beyond the confines of his current gate ways.

IMHO he is looking at his current situtation and asking the question, "How can I do better"? If he fill's X number of 744's with people who are just flying LHR-JFK. How many A380's seats (with 550-600 folks) could he sell if he offered connecting service beyond JFK?

He in turn is providing his own feed. If he can fill an A380 from LHR, Gatwick and Manchester. That all arrive at the same time into JFK. You are looking at 1500-1800 folks in just one wave. Hypotheticly 50% are O&D, the other 750-900 would be looking to connect onto one of his A320's. At approx 160 seats per A320, you are looking at filling 5 A320's. Now consider that he has to feed into those A380's to send them back over the pond. Then sell a few local tickets and it's easy to see where the 25 aircraft order comes from.

He can support his own Virgin USA, with his Virgin Atlantic. This is a tremendous advantage. Branson is for real.

 

[B6Busdriver]

There is a possibility that Jetblue might have some real competition---and not just to FLA and LAS from Song. That could be serious for you guys---and we can't over look that.....We have stiff competition from a lot of LCCs----and we just need to come up with a good plan now--which is being hammered out.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So Song isn't real competition then huh? Sorry, cheap shot but I couldn't help myself. The sooner we all learn we are along for the ride the easier life is (at least for me).
Who knows what might happen. Maybe Branson coming to JFK is the reason we keep hearing JetBlue is getting A330's. Personally, I think getting A330's would be a mistake...for now. Maybe JetBlue's hand will be forced to keep competitive then again maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt. All speculative crew room fodder for now but in the mean time I am enjoying the ride.... Woohooo....

 

[General Lee]

B6busdriver,

I think you know what I mean, but hey--it was a good shot. I meant competition from a lot of cities from JFK---Song only competes with you on 7 or 8 cities total......(Very well, I might add too...)(ask lowercur--he just flew Song and actually liked it)

You are right, we are along for the ride---but it is fun to look outside and watch....Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[IB6 UB9]

Dear General;

I wish I had a dollar for every time I get on this board and read your junior highschool girlish posts, the ones where you try in vain to hide your obvious hopes for the demise of the LCC's, mainly ours. You have no facts, just an erect shun in your Delta pajamas as you conjure up more garbage. I am beginning to think you are a fanatic, and all that roams around in your head is a combination of headlines that you have read until you sort them the way you want so that they lead to our downfall. God help you.

 

[Dizel8]

No General, jetblue did not have a couple of lean years, as a matter of fact, we came out doing very well after less than a year and persist in posting amongst the best profit margins.

While my good friend in Florida gets along well with you, it appears that your skin is pretty thin and your glee in hoping that jetblue will suffer is beginning to shine through in a major fashion.

That "LCC" of yours has been giving away tickets to gain marketshare and yet, the LF at jetblue should tell you, that we are holding our own very well. Song is a trite copy of jetblue, heck, you couldn't even offer more TV channels. Minimun effort required seems to be the Song game plan and zero innovation.

We give the passengers nice service, at a great price in all markets, not just where we face competetion. Interesting how you can pay way more on DAL mainline, but get less than on Song. That must sit well with your customers, giving greater service to people paying way less on Song.

Sure Song is profitable, Selvaggio says so, yet for reasons unknown, DAL will not post the numbers and most analyst believe it to be smoke and mirrors. Of course the question is, what is Song "charged" for: The airplanes, the crews, the fuel, the insurance, the lease payments or maybe nothing at all?
Selvaggio is not about to say, Grinchstein is reevaluating everything, so who knows what will become of Song.

Sushi and sandwiches just won't cut it in the long run, heck, with all the new restaurants in terminal 6, with street pricing, means you get a nice freshly mixed salad with a soft drink for less than $8 or you could go get freshly made sushi.

Soon we will be coming to LGA offering NYC another choice to destinations they want to go to. Wonder if that will take away some passengers from Song?

But hey, take a look in your own backyard. Airtran has a load of 73's coming, with range that will allow them to further cut into the route structure of DAL. Airtran seem to be taking on DAL in a major fashion and growing increasingly strong with every day passing.

Sure, you got the international routes, but soon, at least one LCC will be going there, if not more than one, perhaps further cutting into DAL.

So you go on, with your hope that jetblue will face hard times, just remember, things in this business have a nasty tendency to go full circle.

 

[skykid]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I get on this board and read your junior highschool girlish posts...

Then quit reading them. The General's making more money than Forest Gump. We ought to be figuring out a way to all get back up there rather than ankle biting each other.

 

[General Lee]

IB6 UB9,

HAHAHAHAHHAAAA. You're funny. I guess I hit a nerve.....Talk about a girl. You probably love that movie---Mean Girls. I bet you have seen it "a bunch." Have fun with Virgin USA at your base. Enjoy!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

Have fun with Airtran 737s at your Hub. Enjoy!

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,

You really don't think Song is hurting you, huh? Well, ok--I guess you know the numbers too. Everytime I come up with an article--like the one stating Song had a profitable first quarter---you say it is a lie......Whatever dude. And you did have lean years--I saw you guys at the Lauderdale beach hotel with your stupid blue uniforms when you started out--you looked ridiculous.

As far as me having "glee"---what? I asked a question on how Virgin America or USA etc. might affect you since Jetblue usually steers clear of any LCC competion except Song.....You respond in typical Jetblue fashion "We're the best...." Give it a break. I know you guys are doing well right now---great. But, would that change if Virgin puts up some competition? Maybe---and that scares you---you guys respond immediately by attacking the person asking a question. You guys must have been backyard bullies in grade school---with small wangs.

Have you questioned Salvaggio about the profits? Ever heard of Sarbanes Oxley? The new law that states you cannot lie--especially to the public? I guess those press reports are full of lies? And they are a division of Delta---all Delta has to report is the full deal. But, you knew that....right? And, Song has a better product than Jetblue---with a better IFE system and better food. It scares you, and Neeleman hopes Song doesn't expand---he does.

I can't wait to see you guys in LGA. What happened this Spring there? Technical difficulties? Oh, gate problems? I hope you enjoy it when you fly there--it is really fun.....

Airtran will be starting 737-700 service from ATL soon---yup. But, they still have the same amount of gate space until their new terminal is built in 5 years. They will probably expand outwards until then, and will meet up with you too. But, Neelman is scared of the other LCCs----and now Virgin and Fred Reid are setting their sites on YOU. Enjoy that.

INTL LCC? Oh yeah, ATA might start some next year, from MCO to Europe. Will they get the rights to the same cities we fly to? Probably not. JFK to Moscow, Barcelona, Madrid, Athens, Rome, Milan, Venice, Istanbul, Amsterdam, Brussels, Nice, Frankfurt, Mumbai, and Paris? What about all of our stuff from CVG and ATL--and all of South America, and Tokyo? ATA will be doing that? Wrong. And you guys are getting A380's? Ha!

Yes, you need to remember that too. This industry does go full circle, and we have had our hard times. I don't wish that on anyone, even you---but cockiness will sometimes lead you to it--and you and IB6 UB9 are really cocky sometimes. Have fun at LGB.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Have fun with Virgin A320s at JFK----they will undercut you. Enjoy!

 

[Dizel8]

General,

It becomes obvious, that you have a serious problem with jetblue. You are always the first to post bad news or negative remarks. Things like: "saw you guys at the Lauderdale beach hotel with your stupid blue uniforms when you started out--you looked ridiculous." Well, we are still wearing blue, so I guess we are still ridiculous!

You are foaming at the mouth, when it comes to the potential demise of jetblue and the thought of glorious Delta owning the world twice over. The koolaid you are drinking over there must be spiked way more than mine.

Sure, you are friendly, when handled with kid gloves and you can sit at the head of the table, acting like the magnanimous father figure, but the minute anyone defends their own company or point out, the very real problems facing mother Delta, the fangs comes out. Several posters have remarked on it and while I may have been slow to catch on, it is now quite obvious.

I have not seen many post by jetblue people, who maligns Delta anywhere near what you continue to do with jetblue. If it is bad, you are always the first to post.

No, jetblue is not the end all, not perfect, but pretty good. Yes, I take a bit of pride in the company I work for, but I see no need to continuously point out the bad things about other companies.

I am not happy to see the problem that U faces, nor UAL and I bought stock in AA when it was trading around $4 a share, because I believe AA is a great company.

I am not giddy with anticipation, because GG is bending the DAL pilots over a barrel to get concessions.

Perhaps you need to take a step back and realize, that hoping for hard times of jetblue is not a good thing. This is a nasty rotten business and the guy that used to fly with you, now furloughed, found a home at jetblue and now you are hoping that once again he will be on the street.

No General, there is fun and games and a bit of rivalry and then there something a bit more sinister. I see you in that territory and quite frankly, this is no longer cute, regardless of how many smilies you put on it!

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,

When was the last time I posted an article about Jetblue and possible problems? When? You just posted one about Delta. Thanks. I just asked a question about how a possible new LCC start up at JFK could affect you. I don't know the answer, and neither do you. It was probably something that a lot of people on this board would wonder too. So, again, please give me a date when I posted something bad pertaining to Jetblue--besides the "uniform" issue--which is true. Hey, atleast you changed your uniforms---but I still remember way back when seeing your uniforms and wondering who the heck you were. I guess I know now. Instead of answering the questions--you guys tend to turn it around and try to bully people. I asked a question. You guys flipped out, and then attacked me. Look at IB6 UB9's stupid response---what a joke! I am waiting for a specific article that I posted--and I bet it was a long time ago.

As far as hating you guys---I have never said that---you might think that---but I do not. I usually defend Delta and Song on this board----but as soon as I bring up a good question on possible extra competition on this board you and your buddies try to slam me and question why I hate your airline. Yet another joke!

Time to get some sleep, and I suggest you try to do the same....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

"Hey, at least you changed your uniforms."

Nope, still the same uniform! Still ridiculous!

"And, how would another large LCC affect Jetblue in NYC?"

Funny, no mention of how it might affect Song or Delta!

Too much bias!

 

[Otto Coarsen]

---with small wangs.

BWahhhhahahaha......

It was worth reading about 50,000 repetitive words to stumble upon this old classic.... too funny... I needed a laugh...

 

[B6Busdriver]

You really don't think Song is hurting you, huh? Well, ok--I guess you know the numbers too. Everytime I come up with an article--like the one stating Song had a profitable first quarter---you say it is a lie......Whatever dude. And you did have lean years--I saw you guys at the Lauderdale beach hotel with your stupid blue uniforms when you started out--you looked ridiculous.

-----Come on is this kind of crap necessary? Let's stop the personal attack stuff already. The company was profitable after about 9 months from what I understand.-----

As far as me having "glee"---what? I asked a question on how Virgin America or USA etc. might affect you since Jetblue usually steers clear of any LCC competion except Song.....You respond in typical Jetblue fashion "We're the best...." Give it a break. I know you guys are doing well right now---great. But, would that change if Virgin puts up some competition? Maybe---and that scares you---you guys respond immediately by attacking the person asking a question. You guys must have been backyard bullies in grade school---with small wangs.

----I'm of Irish decent so it's not my fault. LOL. Who knows how Virgin will/would affect us. Maybe our customers will walk, then again maybe not. I doubt we will just roll over. I do think you enjoy stirring the pot as do others.-----

Have you questioned Salvaggio about the profits? Ever heard of Sarbanes Oxley? The new law that states you cannot lie--especially to the public? I guess those press reports are full of lies? And they are a division of Delta---all Delta has to report is the full deal. But, you knew that....right? And, Song has a better product than Jetblue---with a better IFE system and better food. It scares you, and Neeleman hopes Song doesn't expand---he does.

----You're darn right Neeleman hopes Song doesn't expand. Why would he think otherwise? Our entertainment system is being upgraded so we'll see. As far as food goes, you've got us beat there. Do you guys offer any snacks for free? At the end of the day it ain't about Sushi, Bluechips, Live TV or any other amenity. Just ask SWA.----

I can't wait to see you guys in LGA. What happened this Spring there? Technical difficulties? Oh, gate problems? I hope you enjoy it when you fly there--it is really fun.....

----Many of us have had the "joy" of flying out of La Garbage at one time or another so we know what we are in for. Our number two guy was the operations guy for CO in Newark, I bet he can figure something out for LGA too.----

Airtran will be starting 737-700 service from ATL soon---yup. But, they still have the same amount of gate space until their new terminal is built in 5 years. They will probably expand outwards until then, and will meet up with you too. But, Neelman is scared of the other LCCs----and now Virgin and Fred Reid are setting their sites on YOU. Enjoy that.


-----I bet Air Tran will be offering plenty of additional cheap seats against you guys out of ATL and DFW with those 73's. I doubt Neeleman is scared of the other guys. Competition is what this and every business is about. Why go head to head with the other LCC's unless you have to? There have been and are plenty of other opportunities out there than going head to head with the other guys-for now. I fully expect a sound, smart, and competitive response to anything Virgin has.------


INTL LCC? Oh yeah, ATA might start some next year, from MCO to Europe. Will they get the rights to the same cities we fly to? Probably not. JFK to Moscow, Barcelona, Madrid, Athens, Rome, Milan, Venice, Istanbul, Amsterdam, Brussels, Nice, Frankfurt, Mumbai, and Paris? What about all of our stuff from CVG and ATL--and all of South America, and Tokyo? ATA will be doing that? Wrong. And you guys are getting A380's? Ha!


----Like it or not this will be the next front in the LCC/Legacy battle. It's coming, sooner or later.Who the players will be one only knows.-----


Yes, you need to remember that too. This industry does go full circle, and we have had our hard times. I don't wish that on anyone, even you---but cockiness will sometimes lead you to it--and you and IB6 UB9 are really cocky sometimes. Have fun at LGB.

-----I as well as many at JetBlue have experienced the ups and downs first hand. Ain't fun. Ask the UAL folks about career expectations. Yes we have some who are a bit cocky on this board and I don't care for it but try and take the high road----

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Intruder One]

Dizel8
Sure, you got the international routes, but soon, at least one LCC will be going there, if not more than one, perhaps further cutting into DAL.

OH that's funny.......way too funny!

 

[Dizel8]

What is funny, that DAL will be seeing LCC competetion across the pond or you do not think any LCC is capable of it?

ATA has announced expansion into the Atlantic market, think beginning next year. If they do get the 717, perhaps they will use more of their 757 for int'l, after all CAL uses their 757 successfully for "pond jumps."

Plenty of analyst starting to think, that the international markets might be the next logical place for LCC vs legacy. Rumour even has it, that SWA is considering international markets, although mostly north and south of the border.

DAL does not only operate into airports, that are devoid of slots, unlike AA and UAL who has LHR cornered.

Think slots could be available in Paris, Nice, Rome, Milan etc!

 

[General Lee]

Otto,

It made me laugh too---really late at night. I was just asking a question about what Jetblue might do if they had a new LCC in their backyard, and then I got slammed. Whatever.

Bye Bye--General Lee