violation

[AC560]

It appears the individual THINKS and almost 100% sure it was not him. When in doubt...Well many of us have explained that to you already. Maybe you should call the FSDO and see what they say.

Do not do that, ever. Anything you say in that conversation could be used against you. Your calling alone could prompt them to open an investigation. A very good link was provided EdAtTheAirport talking about what information you are required to provide if contacted by the FAA and other good advice in general (from an aviation lawyer). Any time you go beyond that understand you can be digging a hole for yourself. He filed the report, he should forget about it until he hears something and when he does his first call should be to an aviation lawyer.

If the FAA can convince the judge that the violation was intentional then you don't get out of jail free, and the NASA report just added gas to the fire.

I don't disagree my point to you was it seemed you were implying that what you put on that report can be used against you. Even if that report nails your ass to the wall and you introduce it, it can't be used per 14 CFR 91.25 against you by the FAA. They got to show something else to prove your intent.

It might be pretty stupid to write a report describing how you were a moron but unless you are describing a criminal act you got nothing to worry about.

 

[AAflyer]

Do not do that, ever. Anything you say in that conversation could be used against you. Your calling alone could prompt them to open an investigation. A very good link was provided EdAtTheAirport talking about what information you are required to provide if contacted by the FAA and other good advice in general (from an aviation lawyer). Any time you go beyond that understand you can be digging a hole for yourself. He filed the report, he should forget about it until he hears something and when he does his first call should be to an aviation lawyer.



I don't disagree my point to you was it seemed you were implying that what you put on that report can be used against you. Even if that report nails your ass to the wall and you introduce it, it can't be used per 14 CFR 91.25 against you by the FAA. They got to show something else to prove your intent.

It might be pretty stupid to write a report describing how you were a moron but unless you are describing a criminal act you got nothing to worry about.

You misunderstood, I am asking the Russian to call the FSDO and ask their opinion of when to use the ASRS. I would never suggest calling the FAA if you are worried you broke an FAR.

AAflyer

 

[AC560]

You misunderstood, I am asking the Russian to call the FSDO and ask their opinion of when to use the ASRS. I would never suggest calling the FAA if you are worried you broke an FAR.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

 

[JimNtexas]

I don't disagree my point to you was it seemed you were implying that what you put on that report can be used against you. Even if that report nails your ass to the wall and you introduce it, it can't be used per 14 CFR 91.25 against you by the FAA. They got to show something else to prove your intent.

It might be pretty stupid to write a report describing how you were a moron but unless you are describing a criminal act you got nothing to worry about.

You are of course correct. My main point is that the FAA never, ever sees the actual text of your report, the big white block where it says 'describe event/situation'.

All the FAA sees is the tear off part of the form where there is a line for 'type of event/situation'. I've often heard it said that one should not confess to a violation on that line. You just want enough on the 'type of event line' to show that the form you filed related to the event that the FAA is investigating.

 

[The_Russian]

I do not have much time to post. I am out on the line and quite busy. I cannot understand why you folks can't see what I am saying. I strongly think we all agree on the use of the ASRS system. What I don't think you understand is that the ASRS system does not make you invincible. It is not a "get out of jail free card" that can give pilots an excuse to deviate or make mistakes. That is all I am trying to say.

The story I told about the two pilots getting fired is true. The ASRS system self-disclosure they made of their error led the FAA to make their decision. I will not give any more details to protect their identity. You must understand that.

I would not hesitate to call the FSDO if I had any questions. Even if I had caused a deviation. Working directly alongside the FAA and admitting your mistakes is the best way to improve safety. The ASRS sytem is not proactive in increasing safety, only in creating statistics.

Avbug, do not every speak of me that way again. You do not know me, and I do not appreciate it when someone speak to me in such a tone. You speak a lot, and should really take some time to listen.

The FAA already knows who he is because he told them on the phone.

 

[Alamanach]

...I cannot understand why you folks can't see what I am saying. I strongly think we all agree on the use of the ASRS system. What I don't think you understand is that the ASRS system does not make you invincible. It is not a "get out of jail free card" that can give pilots an excuse to deviate or make mistakes. That is all I am trying to say...

You've said somewhat more than that; you've said that Almerick07 shouldn't submit an ASRS report. But as I said in my last post to you:

(I)t seems to me that there was a genuine safety concern, in that ATC couldn't keep track of which plane was which. Based on what you've said-- that the ASRS reports are for safety issues, that a pilot can submit one whether he made an error or not, that this is a safety reoprting tool, and that it is not a "get out of jail free" card-- I would think an ASRS report would be appropriate.

You say it's not appropriate, but I can't see how you come to that conclusion in light of the other things you've said.

If you can clear up this apparent contradiction, please do so when you have the time. Thanks.

 

[The_Russian]

You've said somewhat more than that; you've said that Almerick07 shouldn't submit an ASRS report. But as I said in my last post to you:



If you can clear up this apparent contradiction, please do so when you have the time. Thanks.

Sorry if I confused anyone. Sometimes it is difficult to keep track of your posts when you are running in and out of crew rooms.

To respond to your question, I would say that would be appropriate. But, this is not what he did, nor was it what he inquired about. He asked if he should admit error to a deviation he did not make.

Kudos for bringing that up. It is actually the most appropriate way to handle this concerning the ASRS system. Reporting that controllers were unable, maybe by no fault of their own, to identify previously identified aircraft near class B airspace could be a safety hazard. If filed under that pretense, then the FAA may be able to find a hole in the controllers communication system or a procedure with a flaw in it.

Hope this helps clear that up. Off to the next crew room.

 

[Alamanach]

Well, there you go, everybody, we all agree. Almerick07 should file an ASRS report. He needs to be careful about what he's actually reporting, especially in the title strip, but we all agree he should file a report. Somewhere down the road, should the FAA pursue an investigation, such a report might even protect him from a suspension.

 

[SIG600]

1) If you think "should I file a NASA report?" the answer is always "yes I should" unless you engaged in a willful violation.

2) The report goes to NASA, not the FAA.

3) NASA pays the postage.

4) It can only help you should a certificate action occur.

+1 billion... In six months when you walk to your mailbox and find some BS about this matter from the FAA (which is how long it could take), that is NOT the time to be filling it out. It'll take you 5 minutes, and is cheap insurance (but not a get out of jail free card).

 

[avbug]

If filed under that pretense, then the FAA may be able to find a hole in the controllers communication system or a procedure with a flaw in it.

See? It does get dumber and dumber.

Pretense? Say what happened. Describe your lot, and move on. Sad days.

Gulfstream Airlines captain was it? I get it, now.

I would not hesitate to call the FSDO if I had any questions. Even if I had caused a deviation. Working directly alongside the FAA and admitting your mistakes is the best way to improve safety. The ASRS sytem is not proactive in increasing safety, only in creating statistics.

Well there you go...your voice on this subject has been so informed, everyoen would be listening to the voice of reason and knowledge to follow this counsel...how dimwitted can one get in one thread??

The ASRS...the Aviation SAFETY Reporting System...isn't about safety, is that correct? Rather than report a problem via the program approved by the FAA...you counsel anyone foolish enough to listen to you to pick up the phone and call the friendly FAA? Ever tried that after you committed a violation?

You're aware that under administrative law, particularly as administered by the FAA, you're guilty until proven innocent, and when you call the FAA, you're not being listened to in order to hear your side of the story, right? You're being recorded for the express purpose of using that call against you...you do know that right? Tell me you're not so dense as to not know that, please. Lemme guess...you did a professional flight program at a school and you took an aviation law class (which appears to have been failed)...and now you're an expert? Ever been the subject of enforcement action? Ever walked through the process? Or do you know of a case you can't cite (if the FAA dealt with it, it's public information, brightspark), can't properly apply, involved with a program you don't understand and can't intelligently discuss, and use that for the basis of providing disinformation?

No need to answer...it's all quite clear.

Avbug, do not every speak of me that way again. You do not know me, and I do not appreciate it when someone speak to me in such a tone. You speak a lot, and should really take some time to listen.

All you base belong to us, is that it, mate? Are you drinking when you're typing? Do not every speak of you that way again? What every way would you like? I did listen to you. I laughed a lot, got a little disgusted, and the part that really gets your goat is I QUOTED YOU!! That's really tough, isn't it? Try learning just a little, just a scad, just a touch about whence you speak, don't sound so stupid, don't dole out such uninformed, idiotic advice that someone might actually follow...and you won't be spoken to like that again. Fair enough?

As far as knowing you, I know more about you from your few posts than I care to know, and I'm not impressed.