Vindication for the Pinnacle TVC Crew

[Soverytired]

Nice post.

I'd like to know more details about the alluded-to "pilot fatigue" though.

It's the #1 preventable cause of aviation accidents in the US, IMHO.

 

[BLing]

Vref + 5 is WAY TOO FAST... Thats why I pull the power to idle by 100 ft. Just a touch of trim in the flare and it works great every time.

I have seen a 200 greased on nose wheel first. I watched my CA do it and was quite disgusted and impressed at the same time. He was one of those guys who alway tried to land with a touch of power. I dont get those guys...

 

[BoilerUP]

Vref + 5 is WAY TOO FAST... Thats why I pull the power to idle by 100 ft. Just a touch of trim in the flare and it works great every time.

Idle power in a swept-wing jet at 100 feet?

Glad that technique works out for you...

 

[CA1900]

ALPA should be more like AARP.

It's rapidly heading that way.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Idle power in a swept-wing jet at 100 feet?

Glad that technique works out for you...

Works great for me for 8 years..... unlike Fat Bastard.... I don't leave floaters.....

I put the jet were I intend too....(the 1000ft marker) not this extra energy floating in ground effect looking for a smooth landing, turning into a pax during the last 4 secs, accepting wherever the jet touchdowns....

Merry Xmas!

 

[BoilerUP]

You folks that brought the thrust levers all the way to the stops at the 100' call are far braver than I was. I took quite a bit of power out at 100' and still ended up putting the airplane in the TDZ, but idle thrust? Even in the CR2 (a floating powerhouse, no doubt) that sink rate would make me uncomfortable in most wind conditions.

Guess that's why its called technique, eh?

Merry Christmas to all as well!

 

[Tarzan]

I used it all the time in the 200. No float either. I was able to get the first high speed on 10 numerous times, without much either. My technique works just fine unless there was wind shear. In that case, I'd pull the power about halfway back on the 100 call and idle at 50.

The 700 is a little bit different but if your ref+10 at the 100 call, you can still wipe the power. As the norm though, I pull about a knob out at the 100 and at 50, idle. The problem is with most guys, they are scared to death to flair the airplane. I had one guy jump on me and and say, "You almost stalled right at touchdown." My reply, "That is how it supposed to work, ain't it." He stayed ill about it but not another word.

 

[Stepclimb]

(Also posted in Majors Forum)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I was curious if a Pinnacle pilot would be willing to share what contaminated runway data they have in their books (MU / braking action) vs landing weight and runway required.

I believe the Pinnacle data goes above and beyond the minimum 121.195 (d) DRY and WET factored data that most airlines have. I'm curious what exactly is in the charts.

 

[SLUF4]

Not trying to blame the crew here, but didn't they not do a landing distance assessment which would have said they couldn't have stopped? I remember it depended on whether they used the compacted snow table or wet data. At any rate, I agree its all about getting it down and stopped in those conditions if you even elect to shoot the approach at all.

 

[hmmm]

So I hope now the good Captain that we know he is, who already had very good lawyers on hise side in business before this happened is going to ream and pillage.

I didn't have time to read anything but the first message but had to comment for his sake.

Mike Robinson



.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...View.aspx?itemid=5330&ModuleId=3052&Tabid=256

 

[purduej]

We used to use ref+5 at Skywest but switched to ref a little more than 6 months ago due to something like this. Bombardier simply told the company that ref+5 was not how the landing calculations were done so everything we were doing was for naught. We have a gust factor we can use on top of the ref speed, but nothing more. Seems to work out great, feels like I have twice the runways as I used to, especially in the -700. Only thing is no more power to idle at 100'. Now it's at 50' (for me at least).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We used to use ref+5 at Skywest but switched to ref a little more than 6 months ago due to something like this. Bombardier simply told the company that ref+5 was not how the landing calculations were done so everything we were doing was for naught. We have a gust factor we can use on top of the ref speed, but nothing more. Seems to work out great, feels like I have twice the runways as I used to, especially in the -700. Only thing is no more power to idle at 100'. Now it's at 50' (for me at least).

No disrespect to you sir.....

Another ALPA benefit for OO.

 

[DC8Driver]

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the pilots’ decision to land at TVC without performing a landing distance assessment, which was required by company policy because of runway contamination initially reported by TVC ground operations personnel and continuing reports of deteriorating weather and runway conditions during the approach. This poor decision-making likely reflected the effects of fatigue produced by a long, demanding duty day, and, for the captain, the duties associated with check airman functions. Contributing to the accident were 1) the Federal Aviation Administration pilot flight and duty time regulations that permitted the pilots’ long, demanding duty day and 2) the TVC operations supervisor’s use of ambiguous and unspecific radio phraseology in providing runway braking information.

 

[www.]

Everybody does it the same... they all carry thrust to the 50ft call and beyond... bleed the energy off in ground effect as they sail down the runway and past the first and second turn off.... so they can get a smooth landing... it is the human desire to "look good" under the pretense that THAT is what defines a good landing...

IOW that is the perceived cultural value within pilot groups of a "good stick"....

No they don't. Experience is the difference.