VFR Clearance

[liv'n_on_credit]

Do towered airports usually require a VFR clearance prior to departing? An IFR clearance is obviously needed, but I've flown VFR out of dozens of towered airports in the past, and never needed a clearance prior to departing, just told them what direction I was heading while getting my taxi clearance and they never had a problem.

But in CMH (Columbus) the other day, I asked for a taxi clearance, told them we had the ATIS, we were VFR and we would be heading North. He asked if we had a VFR clearance, I said no. He said to get one, then call him back. We called up clearance delivery, (I thought it was just for IFR clearances), got the VFR clearance, called back ground, departed just fine.

Is this normal at towered airports to need a VFR clearance?

 

[bobbysamd]

VFR clearance

Maybe it's just a local procedure. Anything said about it on the ATIS? Was the airport in question in or under Class B airspace? Of course, you need to hear from ATC "the magic words," i.e. "Cleared to enter the XYZ Class B," to penetrate. Usually, you depart, request a frequency change, and contact the appropriate TRACON facility for the clearance.

I, too, flew out many controlled fields, including those with Class Bs and Cs, and only needed a takeoff clearance to depart VFR.

 

[avbug]

If clearance delivery is available, start there. Not all airports will provide a VFR clearance via clearance delivery, but often they will. When departing Class B or C airspace, or if you're planning to climb through it, often clearance delivery can help expedite you. This is done to keep congestion on ground frequency to a minimum.

 

[English]

Every time I fly VFR out of my local class C and class B airports (SNA, ONT, BUR, LAS come to mind) I have to call clearance delivery first. I basically get just an altitude, heading and squawk. In fact, I don't recall ever having flown from a class C or class B airport VFR without calling clearance delivery first.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

Nothing said about it on ATIS, unless I heard it wrong. No Class B around, it is the center airport in Class C. Maybe there's something about it in the AF/D.

 

[liv'n_on_credit]

Thanks for the replies. The more I think about it, 98% of all towered airports I've flown VFR out of have been class D airports.

Maybe it's the difference Class D vs. Class B/C that determines whether you need a VFR clearance??

 

[avbug]

The local airport determines if you need to go through clearance delivery. I've flown from some busy airfields underlying Class B, that didn't provide Class B clearances or service, nor would a VFR clearance be provided on clearance delivery. SDL is an example.

Other fields do.

Your best bet is to contact clearance delivery first, if one is available. Then go from there.

 

[DitchDriver]

Maybe it's the difference Class D vs. Class B/C that determines whether you need a VFR clearance??

That's strange they wanted VFR clearance in class C. Class B requires a clearance for VFR, Class C/D does not. (91.129, .130, .131)

I assume it that was not a case of Special VFR (even then, they'd never suggest it but ask "field is IFR, say intentions"). Did they ask "do you have VFR clearance" or "did you call clearance delivery"? When it's busy, they'd put "contact clearance delivery ... prior to taxi" on ATIS.

I've gotten heading / altitude / squawk for class C departures, but it never included words "clear into (out of) class C airspace".

 

[satpak77]

"Depends" and "depends" are the correct answers to both questions.

Lets not get too wrapped around the axle with FAR this/that, Special VFR, etc.

If the airport is radar environment, it is common to need a "VFR clearance" to depart the area. Again, route of flight (Mooney XXX, where ya headed today), altitude, and maybe whatever locally is deemed necessary.

Non-radar towered airports, fewer by the day, usually do not require such items.

It is not uncommon in West Texas to depart San Angelo enroute to El Paso, VFR, and after about 30 miles, Departure Control says "Freq change approved, good day". What? I am just up here, not talking to anybody?

Before radar in SJT, you would be told "freq change approved" once you were no longer visible from the tower cab!

Anyway, start with clearance delivery, then ground.

If you did hear the controller say "cleared into Class C" he may have just made a mistake, maybe all last week he was working the Class B corridor, this week he is filling in for someone else.

When in doubt, keep it simple, use common sense, and when in doubt, use English and just ask. The other day I heard on center "Uh, center, where do you want American XXX?"

never hesistate to ASK

 

[midlifeflyer]

I thought Columbus was a Class C primary, not merely "towered". It's standard operating procedure to call Clearance Delivery and obtain a "VFR clearance" when flying out of a Class B or C airport. In the case of Class C it's not a true clearance (you won't hear any Clearance language), but you will get the Route, Altitude, departure control Frequency, and Transponder code (the RAFT from the CRAFT acronym)

 

[501261]

Generally, departing Class B or C VFR you need to call clearance, why isn’t this a “hard” rule? Think about the 2AM VFR departure. So, “generally” ATC puts the “call clearance” on the ATIS. As English pointed out SNA, VNY, BUR, LAS all have this on their ATIS. As Avbug pointed out busy airports beneath Class B or C sometimes don’t do this for clearance, in the SDL example the reason is because SDL is beneath the Class B and you can exit the SDL Class D without entering the Class B.

 

[UnstableAviator]

Good ol

I wish I could find in the AIM or other publication something dealing with this. Simply because telling your students that some Class C airports use clearance delivery for VFR departures and some don't "just because" isn't much to my liking.

As for CMH, they have always used clearance delivery for VFR departures. There is never anything on the ATIS about it though, so I doubt you heard it wrong. I go VFR in and out of there several times a month with students.

 

[Vector4fun]

Some of the confusion here is because controllers referred to it as a "VFR clearance" (common slang). A clearance is not technically required to operate VFR in Class C airspace, but radar service is normally required and provided. Therefore, whenever operating out of the primary airport in Class B or C airspace, if the airport has a CD frequency, it's a good idea to start there.

Some airports put a message on the ATIS for VFR deps to contact CD prior to taxi, some don't. At one airport I previously worked at, we had so many complaints from the local pilots about the length of the ATIS broadcasts, (NOTAMS etc.), that they actually requested we leave the VFR Dep message off. The Local's reasoning was that "everybody ought to know this by now".

Typically, the controller working CD is prepairing a strip and entering info into the ARTS system, which takes about 20-30 seconds. Not much, but more "heads down" time than a busy ground controller can spare at times. Plus, I don't even HAVE a keyboard at the GC position here. So, we'll send you to CD, VFR or IFR....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Good ol

I wish I could find in the AIM or other publication something dealing with this. Simply because telling your students that some Class C airports use clearance delivery for VFR departures and some don't "just because" isn't much to my liking.

I agree that it would be nice if there was some SOP. The AIM is pretty clear on VFR Class B departures, but not Class C. Something to the effect of

==============================
Unless otherwise advised in the ATIS broadcast, departing VFR aircraft should advise the clearance delivery position of their intended altitude and route of flight.
==============================

That said, in my small experience, I haven't yet come across a Class C primary in which CD was =not= used for VFR departure instructions, so I wonder whether the above, although not in any FAA publication really is an SOP.

Other than Class C primaries that include a "contact CD" instruction on ATIS for VFR departures, does anyone here know of a Class C that does =not= conform to the above.

 

[English]

Every class C I have ever flown out of VFR required a call to clearance delivery. Some class D airports are now requiring it as well (LGB).

 

[satpak77]

My rule of thumb is if CD freq is published on the plates at that particular airport, I start with that one. If its slow, CD and Ground may be worked by same person.

I always taught and required that my students carry the AFD and also a copy of the IFR plates for the area, for "info purposes", such as runway diagrams, etc.

You will see some people hauling around the AOPA airport directory, which is a good reference, but for me its easier to carry one AFD and (usually, depending on state) one book of NOAA plates.

The one day you need that runway diagram or that HIWAS freq quickly is the same day your student forgot his AFD. Plus, by being familiar with plates and reading the AFD the students "head is in the game" when he goes into high density airports and hears that Learjet cleared to XXX fix, especially if XXX fix is the IAF and a non-tower field, and your student is in the pattern practicing touch and go's. It still happens that the turbine guys, even tho we try not to, we will call "XXX Traffic, Lear 12 Bravo is leaving the Procedure turn and is WOOLE inbound"

Obviously the preffered is "Lear 12 Bravo is 7 miles South, inbound for runway XX" but in the real world sometimes that does not happen.

If student pilot Jones is familiar where WOOLE is physically at, then all the better.

Anyway, not to get sidetracked, I used to teach the students to keep it simple. If CD is published, start there. Then ground for GROUND OPS. Then tower, and departure/approach as required by the charts and local protocol.

anyway, my .02 cents, put it in the appropriately shaped file

 

[midlifeflyer]

My rule of thumb is if CD freq is published on the plates at that particular airport, I start with that one.

What "plates"? We're talking VFR procedures here. I've never called CD when VFR out of a Class D airport (unless there's a A/FD note or ATIS instruction to do so). And, again when VFR, do you call CD at a non-towered airport if there's a CD frequency for it?

 

[English]

LGB is the only class D that I have flown out of that REQUIRES a call to clearance delivery for both VFR and IFR departures.

Maybe they're getting ready to go class C, I don't know...but it's been this way since 1998...

I don't undertand why there is so much confusion about this. If departing a class C or class B airport, call clearance delivery before you taxi. Period.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Every class C I have ever flown out of VFR required a call to clearance delivery. Some class D airports are now requiring it as well (LGB).

Good point. Especially when the Class D is a Class B or C satellite. Does the ATIS tell you to contact CD?

We can add to the survey:

SOP for VFR aircraft departing Class C:
==============================
Unless otherwise advised in the ATIS broadcast, departing VFR aircraft should advise the clearance delivery position of their intended altitude and route of flight.
==============================

SOP for VFR aircraft departing Class D:
==============================
Unless otherwise advised in the ATIS broadcast, departing VFR aircraft need not advise the clearance delivery position of their intended altitude and route of flight.
==============================

Same question: Anyone know a Class C or D airport that doesn't fit?

 

[Timebuilder]

I only had one unusual experience with a VFR clearance.

I was preparing to depart from RDU, which was a class C airport in 2000 when this happened, in a Skyhawk. A friend and I had been down there for a few days.

I was in the habit of using clearance delivery from my home field, which is a class D field, and from Philadelphia when I would use that airport.

So, I call up CD and ask for a VFR clearance to an on-course heading of such-and-such to Martin State. The guy says "standby".

Then he says I don't see a VFR flight plan in the system for you. I said there isn't one, I just want a VFR clearance. He said that I had to file a VFR flight plan to get a VFR clearance.

Not wanting to make a big deal, I said I was sorry and could he put one in for me? No, I had to call FSS.

Now it seemed pretty odd to me at the time, but got even more odd as I started flying into NY and North Jersey, places like TEB where we'd just ask for and receive a VFR clearnace, fly the prescribed departure, and on home with radar service and a VFR altitude at max permissible speed.

Does anyone know of some special trial program at RDU that required a VFR plan to be on file for a clearance?

 

[English]

If you are VFR in class C, you aren't getting a clearance, per say. You are getting flight following and traffic advisories. You just happen to be calling clearance delivery to get a heading after takeoff, an altitude, a squawk and a departure frequency. It is all advisory in nature.

Now, if you are taking off from a class B airport, then you need an actual clearance to do so, which as we all know is not advisory in nature.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I only had one unusual experience with a VFR clearance.

I flew out of RDU with someone in a Tomahawk in the same time frame and didn't have any problem.

Did you use the term "VFR Clearance"? If you did, maybe you confused the controller? You may have hit on a trainee who never came across it. Although we're using the term to apply to departure instructions from a Class C, it's really a misnomer. It's not standard terminology for anything having to do with Class C airspace and (except when used with the word "special" in front of it) doesn't appear in =any= FAA publication that I'm aware of. Truthfully, although I figured out what was meant right away when it was used in this thread, I've never heard the term before, not even in Class B. I can see someone (new) at ATC getting confused by the non-standard and pretty much meaningless phrase.

If that's it, then chances are that if your CD transmission was simply. "Raleigh Clearance Delivery. Bugsmasher 1234X at JetCenter. VFR Beaufort" everything would have been fine.

 

[satpak77]

Midlife

From FAR Part 1-

Air traffic means aircraft operating in the air or on an airport surface, exclusive of loading ramps and parking areas.

Air traffic clearance means an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace.

And, again when VFR, do you call CD at a non-towered airport if there's a CD frequency for it?

If I was departing VFR and my route would take me thru other controlled airspace, I would. CD controller will advise on further action. If I am departing VFR but staying in local pattern, I would not.

Midlife, what would YOU do? What exactly are YOU teaching your students to do?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Midlife

Midlife, what would YOU do? What exactly are YOU teaching your students to do?

1. Departing Class G or Class E surface area VFR. There may be one, but I have difficulty imagining a situation in which I would call or teach a VFR pilot to contact a ground-based Clearance Delivery position.

2. Departing Class D. Again, unless advised by something in an ATIS broadcast of A/FD note, I would not call the Clearance Delivery position. Of course, I would call ground and Tower in the proper order.

3. Departing Class C or B, unless advised to the contrary in an ATIS instruction or A/FD note, I would call the Clearance Delivery position.

4. If departing from Class G, E or D (again in the absence of an ATIS or A/FD note to the contrary), if my route would take me thru controlled airspace that requires communication or a clearance, I would call the appropriate facility (usually Approach Control but it could be an enroute Tower) prior to entering the their airspace.

 

[Timebuilder]

If that's it, then chances are that if your CD transmission was simply. "Raleigh Clearance Delivery. Bugsmasher 1234X at JetCenter. VFR Beaufort" everything would have been fine.

I didn't say "VFR Clearance" specifically, it was more like "VFR Northbound on a so-and-so heading at 3,500".

I thought I might have found a trainee, but I sure wasn't going to suggest that possibility on the radio!!!

 

[flyingwildfires]

Clearance delivery

If I see a freq for clearance delivery when I look in my A/FD, I call clearance. If I don't, I call ground. Of course all these freqs' availability hinges on the hours of operation (also in A/FD).

I can't imagine going anywhere without the little green book. It's as much a requirement to me as fuel.

 

[satpak77]

thank you

FLyingwildfires

thank you, thats what I tried to post earlier but my transmission was not heard

oh well

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: thank you

FLyingwildfires thank you, thats what I tried to post earlier but my transmission was not heard

Heard yes. Accepted, no. Neither of us is likely to convince the other.

I wonder - how many pilots out there train out of a plain vanilla Class D airport (with a CD frequency) and are taught to contact CD before every VFR departure?

 

[SierraPilot]

The school I goto is located at a Class C airport (Oakland International) which has a overlaying Class B airspace above it. When we depart VFR we simply just call Ground, and never have we been asked to call CD for VFR ops.. however ground does want to know where we are headed and what kind of aircraft we are flying. In response GC will give us a heading, or direction to fly, altitude to stay below bravo, and squawk code. I cant recall them giving us a dep freq but then again they may just assume we know it. Just my .2 cents worth.

Ryan

 

[flyingwildfires]

Am I missing something?

I hope if I am missing something, then someone will line me out. I have always called clearance if there is a Clrnc Del freq in the A/FD, and the hours of operation apply. I do NOT call them if the ATIS carries a note to contact ground in lieu of clearance delivery, or carries some other pertinent instruction. I have taught all my students this way as well.

I do not skip Clearance Delivery even when I am on a fire dispatch, in which case I get the ATIS, call clearance, then ground, etc., etc., telling both clearance and ground I have a fire dispatch. They have been wonderful everywhere we work, at getting us out and on our way FAST... my point here being, we don't skip it, even when we are racing to the fire........

We have worked from Class B airports, all the way down to landing in glorified gravel pits, and I would hope like h#ll I am not doing anything amiss in terms of dealing with ATC, at each of these levels. I try to meet them in person when we are assigned to a certain base, and I call them on the phone if I can't meet them in person, in hopes of making both their lives and mine a little easier when it's all burning and gets smoked in. Please, tell me if I am missing something.... Thanks much.