VFR Clearance

[English]

If you are VFR in class C, you aren't getting a clearance, per say. You are getting flight following and traffic advisories. You just happen to be calling clearance delivery to get a heading after takeoff, an altitude, a squawk and a departure frequency. It is all advisory in nature.

Now, if you are taking off from a class B airport, then you need an actual clearance to do so, which as we all know is not advisory in nature.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I only had one unusual experience with a VFR clearance.

I flew out of RDU with someone in a Tomahawk in the same time frame and didn't have any problem.

Did you use the term "VFR Clearance"? If you did, maybe you confused the controller? You may have hit on a trainee who never came across it. Although we're using the term to apply to departure instructions from a Class C, it's really a misnomer. It's not standard terminology for anything having to do with Class C airspace and (except when used with the word "special" in front of it) doesn't appear in =any= FAA publication that I'm aware of. Truthfully, although I figured out what was meant right away when it was used in this thread, I've never heard the term before, not even in Class B. I can see someone (new) at ATC getting confused by the non-standard and pretty much meaningless phrase.

If that's it, then chances are that if your CD transmission was simply. "Raleigh Clearance Delivery. Bugsmasher 1234X at JetCenter. VFR Beaufort" everything would have been fine.

 

[satpak77]

Midlife

From FAR Part 1-

Air traffic means aircraft operating in the air or on an airport surface, exclusive of loading ramps and parking areas.

Air traffic clearance means an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace.

And, again when VFR, do you call CD at a non-towered airport if there's a CD frequency for it?

If I was departing VFR and my route would take me thru other controlled airspace, I would. CD controller will advise on further action. If I am departing VFR but staying in local pattern, I would not.

Midlife, what would YOU do? What exactly are YOU teaching your students to do?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Midlife

Midlife, what would YOU do? What exactly are YOU teaching your students to do?

1. Departing Class G or Class E surface area VFR. There may be one, but I have difficulty imagining a situation in which I would call or teach a VFR pilot to contact a ground-based Clearance Delivery position.

2. Departing Class D. Again, unless advised by something in an ATIS broadcast of A/FD note, I would not call the Clearance Delivery position. Of course, I would call ground and Tower in the proper order.

3. Departing Class C or B, unless advised to the contrary in an ATIS instruction or A/FD note, I would call the Clearance Delivery position.

4. If departing from Class G, E or D (again in the absence of an ATIS or A/FD note to the contrary), if my route would take me thru controlled airspace that requires communication or a clearance, I would call the appropriate facility (usually Approach Control but it could be an enroute Tower) prior to entering the their airspace.

 

[Timebuilder]

If that's it, then chances are that if your CD transmission was simply. "Raleigh Clearance Delivery. Bugsmasher 1234X at JetCenter. VFR Beaufort" everything would have been fine.

I didn't say "VFR Clearance" specifically, it was more like "VFR Northbound on a so-and-so heading at 3,500".

I thought I might have found a trainee, but I sure wasn't going to suggest that possibility on the radio!!!

 

[flyingwildfires]

Clearance delivery

If I see a freq for clearance delivery when I look in my A/FD, I call clearance. If I don't, I call ground. Of course all these freqs' availability hinges on the hours of operation (also in A/FD).

I can't imagine going anywhere without the little green book. It's as much a requirement to me as fuel.

 

[satpak77]

thank you

FLyingwildfires

thank you, thats what I tried to post earlier but my transmission was not heard

oh well

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: thank you

FLyingwildfires thank you, thats what I tried to post earlier but my transmission was not heard

Heard yes. Accepted, no. Neither of us is likely to convince the other.

I wonder - how many pilots out there train out of a plain vanilla Class D airport (with a CD frequency) and are taught to contact CD before every VFR departure?

 

[SierraPilot]

The school I goto is located at a Class C airport (Oakland International) which has a overlaying Class B airspace above it. When we depart VFR we simply just call Ground, and never have we been asked to call CD for VFR ops.. however ground does want to know where we are headed and what kind of aircraft we are flying. In response GC will give us a heading, or direction to fly, altitude to stay below bravo, and squawk code. I cant recall them giving us a dep freq but then again they may just assume we know it. Just my .2 cents worth.

Ryan

 

[flyingwildfires]

Am I missing something?

I hope if I am missing something, then someone will line me out. I have always called clearance if there is a Clrnc Del freq in the A/FD, and the hours of operation apply. I do NOT call them if the ATIS carries a note to contact ground in lieu of clearance delivery, or carries some other pertinent instruction. I have taught all my students this way as well.

I do not skip Clearance Delivery even when I am on a fire dispatch, in which case I get the ATIS, call clearance, then ground, etc., etc., telling both clearance and ground I have a fire dispatch. They have been wonderful everywhere we work, at getting us out and on our way FAST... my point here being, we don't skip it, even when we are racing to the fire........

We have worked from Class B airports, all the way down to landing in glorified gravel pits, and I would hope like h#ll I am not doing anything amiss in terms of dealing with ATC, at each of these levels. I try to meet them in person when we are assigned to a certain base, and I call them on the phone if I can't meet them in person, in hopes of making both their lives and mine a little easier when it's all burning and gets smoked in. Please, tell me if I am missing something.... Thanks much.

 

[avbug]

I've never worked a tanker base where I did call for a clearance during a fire dispatch. I always go straight to ground, and simply advise them XXX Ground, Tanker XXX, Fire Dispatch, Westbound.

I don't stop rolling; I go straight to the nearest appropriate runway; it's always given me, and I depart with priority. I don't recall ever having been given an exception, unless a slight delay for landing traffic. I try to temper that request if there's known traffic inbound, but in almost every case ATC will send IFR traffic around before they'll delay me.

As far as using CD, if you're in a location where it's available, and you're unfamiliar, there is no good reason not to use it. The purpose of clearance delivery is to ensure smooth control operations. That includes assigning squawk codes or other pertinent information to VFR traffic.

If you're familiar with a particular field's operations and they don't process VFR traffic over clearance delivery, then don't bother with it. It depends on the specific airfield. If in doubt or you're unfamiliar with the field, the use clearance delivery. You're only giving the controllers a helping hand and a heads-up.

If the area will be using terminal radar services and/or has an approach controller, you should always start with Clearance Delivery where it's available. This includes airfields that are not controlled; many exist underlying controlled airspace, wherein a clearance delivery frequency is available from a larger satalite field. If it's available, call it; it's one more tool to ensure a more seamless entry into the system, and to provide all the available advance notice to both controllers and pilots alike for planning purposes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Am I missing something?

I hope if I am missing something, then someone will line me out.

I don't think so. As we go through this thread, and see people talking about flying out of Class B and "entry into the system" I am wondering whether we are talking about apples an oranges. VFR traffic, except for Class C and Class B is not entering any "system".

IFR
Primarily Clearance Delivery is a control tower position for the purpose of relaying IFR clearances to pilots prior to departure. At some Class E and G airports (usually one near Class B or C), there is a remote to a nearby airports' CD position to avoid the problems associated with void time clearances and busy airspace.

VFR
At airports within Class B airspace, CD provide VFR class B clearances to departing VFR aircraft. At most Class C airports, they also provide VFR departure instructions (I'm avoiding the use of the word "clearance" in airspace that has a communication rather than a clearance requirement).

In Class D, some towers, especially those near Class B or C airspace, use their CD position to provide clearances for aircraft that will be entering the overhanging Class C or D. At some it's "required" and when this is the case, ATIS will usually have an instruction to that effect.

Some Class D CDs and Class E CD-outlets can also be used to obtain advance clearances for VFR traffic what will be entering the nearby Class B or C. And some will provide VFR squawk codes for departing VFR that want flight following (although you can get these from Ground as well). But not all. And nothing in this paragraph is.

But, calling a Clearance Delivery channel at Class D or an CD-RCO at a Class E or G airport for the purpose of departing that airport for a VFR flight into Class E or G airspace just because there happens to be a CD frequency listed? Sorry. I just don't see the point, have never done it, have never been asked to do it when checking out with an instruction at a new-to-me airport, and can't imagine why I would teach it. I can just picture the response of the Tower at Centennial (APA) a Class D that is in the top 20-25 busiest airports in the country and 2nd only to Van Nuys as a GA-only Class D if every VFR flight called CD. Tower would be visiting the flight schools on the airport and saying, What the heck are you teaching.

 

[satpak77]

I will try to end this thread

when in doubt, ASK ----> call CD

if familiar/etc ------> dont call CD, call ground


why is this so hard

 

[flyingwildfires]

thanks

Thanks for the replies and the info. I guess in hindsight I have run into clearance delivery only at busier airports, where if an a/c did NOT call them and went sraight to ground, they got their butts chewed.

Appreciate the info. I always find something interesting on this board, no matter what. Sometimes I worry that we get so wrapped up in what we're doing that we're missing new info or part of the bigger picture, that's why I always call ATC wherever we work and try to get a feel for the local procedures. They've always been super to us. Also ATC is great at expediting us, like Avbug says.

I'm always learning and hoep like h*ll I always will be, so appreciate all the good info I find on here... and Happy New Year to everyone..... many tailwinds and smooth skies.....

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: thanks

I'm always learning and hoep like h*ll I always will be

A terrific New Years resolution for us all!

Happy New Year.

 

[AxisVDP]

I ask for clearance for VFR at KBNA (Class C), but at a class D airport near by I call ground.

 

[BobSmith_av8r]

hey SierraPilot, are you guys back up and running yet?