Verifying the flightplan with the legs page

[JoeMerchant]

Classic.... the guy has an inferior complex.... nothing worse than a regional guy who can't go to the majors, yet has to prove himself to himself.....

As a back up... just double check the miles on the release and the FMS. Should be the same or one off..... not absolute... though...

Classic, you can have the proper route in there and still be off by 20 miles depending on SIDS, STARS, and which way the airport is turned...Doesn't mean you don't have a mistake in there.

 

[asayankee]

I'm sorry bud, but the minute you started working at an airline is the minute you agreed to fly per the OM and FOM. The problem with common sense is that it isn't that common. If we had no published procedure, how would pilots know what to expect of each other?

I agree that for the most part, manuals are written by those that do not fly the line. But, also for the most part, procedures are well thought out and are made to fix a problem. With ASAP and FOQA data, expect more changes to the manuals as time goes on. Course deviations are a major ASAP driver right now.

If you want to be a cowboy and fly by your rules of common sense, you should fly corporate. Especially at a regional airline, where it isn't uncommon to have a 10,000 hour pilot fly with a 1,000 hour pilot, well-defined procedures are extremely important. If a procedure isn't working, or it's unduly cumbersome, then pass on your feedback.

If you think procedure and following things to the letter is the key to safety and correctness, I challenge you to go fly with Jim Keet or Jeff Callibut on the 700 and tell me how safe you feel!!!! You will be begging for a little "common sense"...haha

 

[JoeMerchant]

if you think procedure and following things to the letter is the key to safety and correctness, i challenge you to go fly with jim keet or jeff callibut on the 700 and tell me how safe you feel!!!! You will be begging for a little "common sense"...haha

bingo!

 

[COOPERVANE]

Some ASA folks here wrapped around the axle about following the OM by every syllable might be comfy at Cathay. They supossedly dictate syllable by syllable how every word is uttered in the cockpit.

Remember, were NOT talking about altering SOP's here. We're not talking about skipping checklists or telling somebody to shut up and watch during an unstable approach. The OP was complaining about a procedure being changed that has been done a certain way for a long time, and the new procedure is a little quicker but really accomplishes the same thing.

The surprising thing is, Delta doesn't get anywhere near to ASA to controlling every minutia of every profile. There is a suprising lack of "procedure" for many things. Something about those 600 hour guys needing direction and hand holding for every eventuality.

I bet the Delta OM probably just says "ENSURE the filed route is properly entered into the FMS". How it's done is captains discretion. The FO's learn to go along with it.

But not here ar ASA. You ask an FO to do ANYTHING outside what is dictated by our manuals and about 15% want to argue that it's not supposed to be done that way and they're not doing it. Do you FO types record the fuel at brake release? Why not? It's in the OM. Then you question why some Captain wants to thoroughly check the route? You can't just break the SOP's you don't like and then be annoyed if somebody is EXTRA thorough.

Also trip 7, when U upgrade, you WILL feel the yoke of more responsibility on your shoulders. YOU will be the person held responsible for ANY errors committed during that flight. You will want to ensure that everything has been done properly and part of that is doing it the way YOU as pilot in command feel most comfortable doing it (without violating SOP's or the regs). Even if it is not required by the book and takes an extra 20 seconds. I promise you, the last thing you should have to tolerate is some new hire telling you he doesn't wanna do it because we don't have to.

 

[777forever]

Some ASA folks here wrapped around the axle about following the OM by every syllable might be comfy at Cathay. They supossedly dictate syllable by syllable how every word is uttered in the cockpit.

The surprising thing is, Delta doesn't get anywhere near to ASA to controlling every minutia of every profile. There is a suprising lack of "procedure" for many things. Something about those 600 hour guys needing direction and hand holding for every eventuality.

I bet the Delta OM probably just says "ENSURE the filed route is properly entered into the FMS". How it's done is captains discretion. The FO's learn to go along with it.

But not here ar ASA. You ask an FO to do ANYTHING outside what is dictated by our manuals and about 15% want to argue that it's not supposed to be done that way and they're not doing it. Do you FO types record the fuel at brake release? Why not? It's in the OM. Then you question why some Captain wants to thoroughly check the route? You can't just break the SOP's you don't like and then be annoyed if somebody is EXTRA thorough.

Also trip 7, when U upgrade, you WILL feel the yoke of more responsibility on your shoulders. YOU will be the person held responsible for ANY errors committed during that flight. You will want to ensure that everything has been done properly and part of that is doing it the way YOU as pilot in command feel most comfortable doing it (without violating SOP's or the regs). Even if it is not required by the book and takes an extra 20 seconds. I promise you, the last thing you should have to tolerate is some new hire telling you he doesn't wanna do it because we don't have to.

Man all that wind for nothing. You're missing the point. I don't mind if the legs page is used as long as its not the sole method of verifying the flightplan. Lateral deviations have become quite and issue at ASA and if verifying with the legs page was sufficient they would have never changed the procedure.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Some ASA folks here wrapped around the axle about following the OM by every syllable might be comfy at Cathay. They supossedly dictate syllable by syllable how every word is uttered in the cockpit.

Remember, were NOT talking about altering SOP's here. We're not talking about skipping checklists or telling somebody to shut up and watch during an unstable approach. The OP was complaining about a procedure being changed that has been done a certain way for a long time, and the new procedure is a little quicker but really accomplishes the same thing.

The surprising thing is, Delta doesn't get anywhere near to ASA to controlling every minutia of every profile. There is a suprising lack of "procedure" for many things. Something about those 600 hour guys needing direction and hand holding for every eventuality.

I bet the Delta OM probably just says "ENSURE the filed route is properly entered into the FMS". How it's done is captains discretion. The FO's learn to go along with it.

But not here ar ASA. You ask an FO to do ANYTHING outside what is dictated by our manuals and about 15% want to argue that it's not supposed to be done that way and they're not doing it. Do you FO types record the fuel at brake release? Why not? It's in the OM. Then you question why some Captain wants to thoroughly check the route? You can't just break the SOP's you don't like and then be annoyed if somebody is EXTRA thorough.

Also trip 7, when U upgrade, you WILL feel the yoke of more responsibility on your shoulders. YOU will be the person held responsible for ANY errors committed during that flight. You will want to ensure that everything has been done properly and part of that is doing it the way YOU as pilot in command feel most comfortable doing it (without violating SOP's or the regs). Even if it is not required by the book and takes an extra 20 seconds. I promise you, the last thing you should have to tolerate is some new hire telling you he doesn't wanna do it because we don't have to.

Well said!

 

[the palm]

Yeah I love the FO's that want to challenge everything. But it's usually the FO's that used to be captains that are the worst. Always dread flying with those guys.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I couldn't agree more that it was a waste of breath. Some will never hear.

Our latest spate of lateral deviations had nothing to do with verifying leg by leg. It had to do with not verifying it at ALL, not the method of verification. The training dept changed it because it was quicker/easier to verify it on the flight plan page. Maybe crews will do it if theres an easier way.

Please just ALLOW those loser Captains in your seat to do it the way they feel most comfortable and be glad they have the logic to verify it at all. You sure seem to want to second guess ALOT of your Captains methods. (autopilot deferral thread)

I hope you upgrade soon, you can show everybody what a true aviator looks like, but you won't believe some of the FO's you'll have to fly with. Good luck.

I'm done. Time for a single malt

 

[DrewBlows]

It should not be a First Officer's job to learn each Captain's individual "procedures," it should be each pilot's responsibility to know the book and do things as written. That's not to say there isn't room for technique, but every it's the company that gets to decide how much room for technique there is, not individual pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It should not be a First Officer's job to learn each Captain's individual "procedures," it should be each pilot's responsibility to know the book and do things as written. That's not to say there isn't room for technique, but every it's the company that gets to decide how much room for technique there is, not individual pilots.

You never answered my question...Have you read every book from cover to cover?

I tell my FO's, I don't care how you do it as long as we don't die, get fired, or violated in that order...Technique doesn't interest me...

Have you ever violated "sterile cockpit"? How about speeding on the highway? I bet you have ignored rules or laws you don't agree with...

Regarding the company vs. the pilot to "decide how much room for technique", as I said, I don't care about "technique", but it is my cockpit and not the companies....I will go home at the end of the day, and some of these stupid procedures make things more dangerous....Sorry for being politically incorrect, but I like to call a spade a spade.....

 

[LazyLightnin']

Holy crap, John. Does your wife ever get to see you when you're not playing "not in my day" or "I tell my FO's" on the internet? Get off flightinfo and facebook and go act like normal grandparents.

 

[777forever]

I couldn't agree more that it was a waste of breath. Some will never hear.

Our latest spate of lateral deviations had nothing to do with verifying leg by leg. It had to do with not verifying it at ALL, not the method of verification. The training dept changed it because it was quicker/easier to verify it on the flight plan page. Maybe crews will do it if theres an easier way.

Please just ALLOW those loser Captains in your seat to do it the way they feel most comfortable and be glad they have the logic to verify it at all. You sure seem to want to second guess ALOT of your Captains methods. (autopilot deferral thread)

I hope you upgrade soon, you can show everybody what a true aviator looks like, but you won't believe some of the FO's you'll have to fly with. Good luck.

I'm done. Time for a single malt

Are you in the training department because your claim of why the flightplan verification procedure was changed is COMPLETELY different from everyone I've talked to. The claim that it was done solely because it was easier so that more crew members would do it is beyond rediculous. Common sense tells you if your clearance reroutes you the legs page is useless. The procedure was changed because the flightplan page is flat out better method of verification that just happens to be faster. Common issue is your clearance changing, and while loading the new clearance someone forgets to put the jet or victor airway in and just has a direct to in between fixes. Will the legs page help you catch that if that is your sole method of verification?

You seem to jump to conclusions a lot. The autopilot MEL thread involved a hypothetical situation that was not based off any real life event. I started that thread because I knew it would be a pretty good discussion for me and many others to learn from, which it sure was. Same thing with this thread. asayankee and others who thought that the fms flightplan page doesn't show discontinuities when the legs page does now know that is false.

Great points have been made that the legs page is still an excellent tool for flightplan verification, but should supplement the flightplan page and not be the sole source of verification.

 

[DrewBlows]

You never answered my question...Have you read every book from cover to cover?

I tell my FO's, I don't care how you do it as long as we don't die, get fired, or violated in that order...Technique doesn't interest me...

Have you ever violated "sterile cockpit"? How about speeding on the highway? I bet you have ignored rules or laws you don't agree with...

Regarding the company vs. the pilot to "decide how much room for technique", as I said, I don't care about "technique", but it is my cockpit and not the companies....I will go home at the end of the day, and some of these stupid procedures make things more dangerous....Sorry for being politically incorrect, but I like to call a spade a spade.....

Of course I am not a perfect pilot, but I at least attempt to do things the way my company wants and pays me to do. When I have a question about how something is supposed to b3done or someone shows me something that I am doing wrong I look it up and correct it. If I have a question or disagreement about how a procedure works I solicate an explanation. One thing I don't do is make up my own procedure, because when I was a First Officer I hated flying with unpredictable Captains. Most non-standard guys were just annoying, a few were potentially unsafe.

You are not calling "a spade a spade," you are justifying you non-standard behavior.

 

[the palm]

It should not be a First Officer's job to learn each Captain's individual "procedures," it should be each pilot's responsibility to know the book and do things as written.

Actually, you need to do both. Just sayin'.

 

[JustaNumber]

You never answered my question...Have you read every book from cover to cover?

I tell my FO's, I don't care how you do it as long as we don't die, get fired, or violated in that order...Technique doesn't interest me...

I can't believe you haven't read the FOM and OM from cover to cover. (I really hope everyone here has, especially captains). How are you going to keep from getting violated if you don't know how they can violate you? I think you haven't heard enough stories of jumpseaters (FAA and otherwise) blowing the whistle on some non-standard procedure, leading to some form of violation. Sure it's B.S., but that's the game we're playing, so might as well play to win. Plus it does make it easier on FOs knowing what to expect.

Have you guys read the email on the 2010 LOSA report? Turns out we did pretty well, but one thing that stuck out was a fairly significant list of what were termed intentional procedural violations. As in, if it's in the book one way and you did it another, it was intentional. I would look for some upcoming changes soon to address this, so it's time to start upping our games. (BTW, I'm not a perfect pilot by any means, but I do keep trying to become more standard).