V2 to MSA or Accelerate to VFS????

[bizjet800]

...and that right there should be the last word...

Are you saying your favorite word, is the last word? LOL

I never understood leveling at 400 ft. But if that's what the book says, I guess you have to do it.

 

[tomgoodman]

Old engines

I never understood leveling at 400 ft. But if that's what the book says, I guess you have to do it.

When I went to DC-9 school (1980), our book said level off, clean up, and set MCT at 900 feet on a V1 cut. Of course, someone asked "why not an even 1000 feet?" The answer we got was that 900 feet was all you could reach within the 5-minute takeoff thrust limit (worst case for our stations).

 

[LegacyDriver]

I concur that CAE is teaching V2 to MSA. I got into a big argument with the instructor over it. Now my co-pilot is convinced that V2 to MSA is the way to do it. With APG #s I always held V2 (SE) or V-whatever (with both motors - 14 deg nose up and take whatever speed I got) to their custom acceleration height then cleaned up. I think this V2 to MSA thing is gonna bite somebody.

 

[spxdriver]

I concur that CAE is teaching V2 to MSA. I got into a big argument with the instructor over it. Now my co-pilot is convinced that V2 to MSA is the way to do it.

Your CO-PILOT? Um, LD, you are the co-pilot!
Refer to: CE-XXX SIC ONLY on your temporary certificate.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I got into a big argument with the instructor

No......I couldn't picture this....

 

[LegacyDriver]

I'm also the more experienced guy. Duh. We all die as crews not individuals.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Your CO-PILOT? Um, LD, you are the co-pilot!
Refer to: CE-XXX SIC ONLY on your temporary certificate.

BURN. Sweet. Confucious say, "Don't run mouth if someone knows you lie."

 

[LegacyDriver]

Uh......who was lying?It was no secret.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If this comes down to a shootout at the OK corral in Hickville Texas my vote is on SPX - he's a wicked shot with his Kimber - LD sports an junky old SIG 9mm.

 

[LegacyDriver]

.357 Sig these days. SPX is so tiny he isn't even strong enough to lift a hangun. DILF would have to shoot me *for* him.

 

[avbug]

I'm also the more experienced guy.

That's rather unfortunate for your operation, isn't it. Given your question at the outset of this thread, your experience level is rather minimal. I find it hard to believe a working professional would ask the question at all, let alone in the manner that it was presented.

Duh.

What would you say if you were a college graduate?

We all die as crews not individuals.

You do this a lot, do you?

Now my co-pilot is convinced that V2 to MSA is the way to do it.

You're copilot is convinced, you say. Never the less, we learn that you're the copilot, which you assert has never been a secret; this affirms that you are indeed the copilot...and yet you refer to your fellow pilot as your copilot. You're the first officer, copilot, right seat guy, then...not the PIC, just so we've got that straight. Never the less, you're the more experienced guy, the one that "dies together." Thanks for clearing that up. I'm curious about your assertion that you're not lying, however. You talk about your copilot being erroneously convinced of what you clearly don't understand, then go on to say that you're really the copilot, and then assert that you didn't lie. How do you manage that?

I always held V2 (SE) or V-whatever...

V-whatever? Perhaps you shouldn't resort to such complicated technical jargon. Perhaps you should plan on referencing a real airspeed, rather than V-whatever. Being rather nebulous, you may have a hard time basing performance data on V-whatever. Where do you find this defined (it's okay to look in Part 25 this time, incidentally...you won't find it in TERPS). Still can't find it? Shocking.

I think this V2 to MSA thing is gonna bite somebody.

How, exactly, is maintaining takeoff safety speed going to "bite somebody?"

 

[LegacyDriver]

(PDA not doing para breaks. Sorry. Gonna try html.)

You obviously didn't read what was written.I advocate following the cleanup schedule. There is a growing crowd that advocates holding V2 to MSA regardless. I disagree but when you have a CAE or FSI instructor teaching it that way it gives pause.

Also "V-whatever" means just that. Whatever speed you have at TO angle after V2. In the Falcon it was called "V-that" and this refers to not slowing back to V2 after an engine failure but holding what you have (there are numerous reasons for that).

I may not be typed in this airplane but I followed the same syllabus as the guy who did and while I may be the F/O I don't play the ego game. It is a team effort and we are both pilots hence he's my co-pilot and I'm his. When I was a PIC I may have had to make the final call but I made damned sure my F/O knew he/she was vital to the success of the flight. Obviously avbug you have a different view of CRM. Not my problem.


And yes I believe it is going to be a struggle to convince my co-pilot (PIC, Captain, left seater, ad nauseum) that V2 to MSA is not necessarily the best way to go.
How will it bite someone? When they hold V2 instead of cleaning up on profile and hit terrain they should have cleared. The advocacy of V2 to MSA is being preached as gospel with no data to back it up by those who peddle this method.That's not good, unless, as I asked before, I am missing something.

 

[NCherches]

V2 until no more yellow/red near me on the EGPWS sounds good to me

 

[avbug]

I don't play the ego game.

You're the king of the ego game. You're the king of the egotistical nothing-can-surpass-the-almighty-Legacy game, too. It's humorous to see you unqualified, second fiddle, and still knowing more than anyone else...even though you clearly have no grasp of the subject.

Sort of like watching a second-grader try to expound on astrophysics at a university. Sad, but humorous.

Obviously avbug you have a different view of CRM.

I said nothing of CRM. Obviously you have a reading comprehension problem, to say nothing of a comprehension problem in general.

How will it bite someone? When they hold V2 instead of cleaning up on profile and hit terrain they should have cleared.

Takeoff safety speed will cause someone to hit terrain?

Have you ever actually flown a departure procedure, calculated takeoff performance, or planned and flown an obstacle departure?

Your commentary would lead one to believe otherwise.

You seem to continue to hold on to the belief that there is some correlation between terminal procedures, and Part 25...a mistake you owned up to, inadvertently, at the outset of this thread.

What keeps you from smacking terrain? YOU. Think. Plan. Calculate. Know.

Is your performance calculated at V2?

Are you still suggesting that Simuflite or FSI is teaching something other than the manufacturer procedures?

That's not good, unless, as I asked before, I am missing something.

You're missing more than something. You're missing some things. A great many, it would appear.

 

[LegacyDriver]

The only thing missing here is someone sticking their boot up your a--. You need it. Now I remember why I ignored you for so long. Time to go back to that I'm thinking.

Part 25 and TERPS speak different languages. I'm well aware of what is what. I think the manufacturers should be required to give more data for different circumstances. If that means a change to the regs so be it.

Yes I am saying that people are teaching things that go against the manufacturer as I see it. Some CAE guys say I am right some say I'm not. I also worked for a company that had V2 to MSA as SOP even though the identical airframe (and manufacturer data) advocated a clean up at accel height then climb at final segment speed.

Holding V2 to MSA in a Cessna, Embraer, and some Falcons (not the 7X apparently) is not correct IMHO. But people who should know better are teaching otherwise. I'm sure V2 gives you angle over Vfs / Venr to a point. The question becomes, at what point.

I frankly think the person who lacks experience here is you, avbug. Even if that assessment is incorrect, you haven't followed the thread so your comments wind up irrelevant, adding absolutely *no* substance to this discussion. Come back when you have something to contribute.

And yes, the Legacy is bad a**. That has nothing to do with my ego as I didn't design it.
Go away. The adults are trying to have a conversation.

 

[avbug]

If the adults are trying to have a conversation, then it's probably time for you to be seen, and not heard. Isn't it past your bed time?

 

[7on7Off]

Holding V2 to MSA in a Cessna, Embraer, and some Falcons (not the 7X apparently) is not correct IMHO.

So I guess you're smarter than the engineers who suggested it, and a better pilot than the test pilots who confirmed it?

It was suggested earlier that you simply follow the AFM procedure. If you disagree with it, take it up with the manufacture, not the flightinfo crowd.

For the record, our SOP (mirrored from the AFM) is V2 to MSA (or top of charted climb), while maintaining takeoff flap configuration.

 

[Rick1128]

If you don't follow the manufacturers procedures, you basically become a test pilot. All your performance is based on following the procedures in the AFM. If you follow a different procedure, you are throwing all your performance figures out the window.

As for Aspen, a few years ago during recurrent in the Lear 35 and the G4, my sim partner and I did takeoffs out of Aspen (in the sim, of course) at max gross for the conditions and a V1 cut. What was interesting was the fact that we actually had better terrain clearance with an engine out than we did with both engines operating. Part of that was because of our slower climb rate we were a little further down range so that when we did make our initial turn we were over the valley instead of going over the ridgeline.

 

[LegacyDriver]

So I guess you're smarter than the engineers who suggested it, and a better pilot than the test pilots who confirmed it?

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You misunderstand. The manufacturers above all call for an accelration segment to clean up and accelerate. At least that's how I read their data. (Other than the 7X which I'm told says go V2 to safe altitude.)
As for ur SOP if your average climb gradient in that configuration gets you clear of the terrain I have no objection. I am sure there are circumstances where that won't work though, making a cleanup necessary unless you are light.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Isn't it past your bed time?

I don't sleep. I was created in a science lab for the soul purpose of annoying as many people as possible on the internet.