V.America- u know your pay rates are worse than Spirits, right?

[hyflyin]

Knock it off with the name calling and the profanity or you're going to get a FI vacation.

/mod

For how long?

 

[Caveman]

Remember that even though you can ‘dress up a pig’, in the end, a pig is still a pig.


Yeah good luck to 'em but your pay is still sh8t.

I'm not defending VA, but.......you had better check JetBlue's history. Our early pay rates were pitiful too. In fact it has only been with the recent pay raise that we reached middle of the pack. Give them some time. Hopefully they'll get there. If 5 years from now they are still way behind you might have a point.

 

[Fly2AK]

VA's pay does not beat CAL in the first couple of years, only in the first year. Don't forget CAL has many 737-800, 900 aircraft so second year pay is closer to 67 dollars. This pay is very low and will hopefully change very soon !

Va does have new pay rates that have yet been postedd on APC. However, my point is VA is still new where legacies like UAL, CAL US Airways have been around for many years and VA's first couple years are up with theirs and higher. Give them some time and if in a few years the pilots settle for lower wage then so be it. Remember Allegiant in 2006 topped at $103 per hour for an MD80 Captain. All the carriers and groups need work and it is time to stand together and take back our careers.

 

[banger]

If you were a 4 year FO at VA and upgraded to CA, would you be paid as a 4yr CA or a first year CA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, good thing we can actually get things done within days as opposed to years by not having a union. Sometimes unions are needed, at this time it is not.

Cautiously optimistic

For how long?

 

[Fubijaakr]

If you were a 4 year FO at VA and upgraded to CA, would you be paid as a 4yr CA or a first year CA?

1st year. And don't forget they use MERIT upgrade.

 

[satlol]

1st year. And don't forget they use MERIT upgrade.

Totally incorrect on both counts. You will not start over at year 1 and they are no longer upgrading based on merit. I interviewed this week and verified both of these rumors with the CP.

 

[Fubijaakr]

YEAH! That $105 Airbus Capt. pay rate is looking pretty good! There are Regional RJ jobs that pay more than that. And in ONLY 3 more YEARS the FIRST guy hired will top out at $120.

Nice.

 

[NEDude]

YEAH! That $105 Airbus Capt. pay rate is looking pretty good! There are Regional RJ jobs that pay more than that. And in ONLY 3 more YEARS the FIRST guy hired will top out at $120.

Nice.

You need a clue buddy. Compare apples to apples. Show me any RJ that pays a first or second year captain even remotely close to $105/hr.

Here is another argument using your logic - Virgin America pays A320 pilots more than United pays 747 pilots.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You know why UAL's pay rates suck? Because when UAL went into bankruptcy court they asked for B6 pay rates at the time.

And check QX's top Capt. pay rate. Its HIGHER than Virgin's.

 

[waveflyer]

You guys are going after the wrong group-

That said- I disagree with any un-unionized group that collectively bargains. You want the people who represent you at the negotiating table to be as independent of the company as YOU would be if you were negotiating a contract for yourself. Seniority and collective bargaining simply does NOT work without a legal certified union to represent you.

 

[Fly2AK]

Your kind of right about QX. However, at QX you need to be there for 17 years to get that $120 per hour and the FO's will never see 2nd year FO pay that VA FO's receive. Also I believe that the VA pay rates have gone up to, I believe 125 per hour. Don't know about you but if my only 2 choices were VA and QX I would choose to make 120 an hour in 5 years vs 17 years. With that said I still maintain my position that all pilot groups need to retake their careers and push the bar higher. Hats off to Spirit guys which have done just this. Congrats on the TA, spirit! Now the rest of us need to get to work on this same issue.

 

[NEDude]

You know why UAL's pay rates suck? Because when UAL went into bankruptcy court they asked for B6 pay rates at the time.

And check QX's top Capt. pay rate. Its HIGHER than Virgin's.

No it is not. Regarding VA, the information on APC is not up to date, not official information and not complete. The current VA captain pay scale tops out at $133/hr at year ten. Incidently, if you go by the information on APC, our ten year captain pay is $11/hr more than USAirways east pay for a ten year A320 captain, and only $2/less for the same position on the west. Additionally it is a whopping $1/hr less than 10 yr A320 captain pay at United.

When you bring up what happened in bankruptcy, please remember to bring up everything the company asked for. For example, they also asked for even more relaxation of scope so they could outsource more jobs. Who originally relaxed scope and allowed the outsourcing? ALPA.

Pay rates may be lower due to JetBlue, but the reason thousands of pilots are unemployed and ready to jump on at new start-ups is due to ALPA giving up scope and allowing outsourcing.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

YEAH! That $105 Airbus Capt. pay rate is looking pretty good! There are Regional RJ jobs that pay more than that. And in ONLY 3 more YEARS the FIRST guy hired will top out at $120.

Nice.

This is the problem. Guys like Funijaakr look at VA and think this is SHWEEET compared to regional salaries. Sad.....

 

[FLYLOW22]

Problem is.... VA pilots can't strike....

Yeah. They can walk out.

 

[tzskipper]

For how long?

Rez,

With all due respect, has ALPA done anything to bring VA pilots into the fold?

You imply the need to organize, but irregardless of any past ALPA contribution made by an individual VA pilot, as far as I can tell ALPA has done nothing in the past but try to cost these same pilots their current jobs.

Assuming the pilots decide to pursue representation, what is the eventual solution to the question of who it should be? I would not blame the VA pilots for taking their business somewhere else after what has transpired.

 

[hyflyin]

This is the problem. Guys like Funijaakr look at VA and think this is SHWEEET compared to regional salaries. Sad.....

Ah.... BILL....I think Funijaakr is being sarcastic.
:beer:

 

[waveflyer]

This is the problem. Guys like Funijaakr look at VA and think this is SHWEEET compared to regional salaries. Sad.....

And what companies created the "regional" industry? What pilot groups have been complicit in it's growth?

The full circle Bill that I talked w/ you about before-
you guys sell out RJ flying to keep a bit more for yourself - and it puts very real downward pressure on everyone's wages- including yours- regional pilots will never have great leverage to up their pay- and no vote on how little or much flying gets contracted to them-

The ex Aloha and ATA guys at VA would have more leverage to up wages if they didn't know that the current VA wages provide a real step up for thousands of very good and qualified rj drivers- it's why FO pay is pretty consistent with rj capt pay.-

I lost all respect for Delta when around 2006- fully out of bk and on the upswing DALPA voted to allow 90seaters- (configured to 76-80pax) in order to get more pay for themselves. DAlpa have the least integrity and are the biggest cause for the race to the bottom this industry has seen in the last 10 years

 

[waveflyer]

Rez,

With all due respect, has ALPA done anything to bring VA pilots into the fold?

You imply the need to organize, but irregardless of any past ALPA contribution made by an individual VA pilot, as far as I can tell ALPA has done nothing in the past but try to cost these same pilots their current jobs.

Assuming the pilots decide to pursue representation, what is the eventual solution to the question of who it should be? I would not blame the VA pilots for taking their business somewhere else after what has transpired.

Spirit is ALPA...Seemed to work

 

[Whine Lover]

No...."Tim Martins is ALPA."

 

[NEDude]

Spirit is ALPA...Seemed to work

It took four years and a strike to work. And the MEC issued a back to work order before releasing any details of the TA so other than a small handfull, nobody really knows if it worked or not.

You simply cannot ignore the fact that ALPA created the downward pressure on salaries by repeatedly allowing the outsourcing of mainline jobs to poor paying regionals and putting thousands of mainline pilots out of work. That is ALPAs legacy, and one that is now coming back to haunt it.

 

[waveflyer]

The 2nd paragraph- I'll never argue with-
100%! well said

the 1st though is Bush's very open standing order to have no strikes under his NMB-
the problem you and I have is corruption within ALPA- short-sightedness and arrogance within the major pilot ranks-

What most pilots ignore as they dutifully cash their union paychecks twice a month are the politics involved in getting you that contract. Go ahead and blame ALPA-
a vague individual-less entity-
I blame pilots for not making ALPA what it used to be and for voting republican which absolutely does not support us or our contracts.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

And what companies created the "regional" industry? What pilot groups have been complicit in it's growth?

Aaaaah yes....The old, "It's all ALPA's fault." You seem to have no problem blaming them for just about everything, but can't seem to look in the mirror at the whole "pay for training" you endeavored to get your job at southwest, nor the fact that your pilot group was the caveat for "age 60."
Well done doosh!

The full circle Bill that I talked w/ you about before-
you guys sell out RJ flying to keep a bit more for yourself - and it puts very real downward pressure on everyone's wages- including yours- regional pilots will never have great leverage to up their pay- and no vote on how little or much flying gets contracted to them-

The only downward pressure we had on us was the ******************** wages southwest paid their employees. I'm just glad that the whole "pay for your job," wasn't even brought up. It's bad enough to have to work for less than southwest wages thanks to a trip to bankruptcy, but the fact that your employer makes you pay to go work there is unbelievable that you can point the blame somewhere else!

The ex Aloha and ATA guys at VA would have more leverage to up wages if they didn't know that the current VA wages provide a real step up for thousands of very good and qualified rj drivers- it's why FO pay is pretty consistent with rj capt pay.-

I lost all respect for Delta when around 2006- fully out of bk and on the upswing DALPA voted to allow 90seaters- (configured to 76-80pax) in order to get more pay for themselves. DAlpa have the least integrity and are the biggest cause for the race to the bottom this industry has seen in the last 10 years

I never had any respect for some pft southwest girl, but when you jerks voted to support age 65, you went down below gulfstream international.
Again, kudos to a job well done by the southwest pilot group for continuing to bring down the profession.

 

[Caveman]

The 2nd paragraph- I'll never argue with-
100%! well said

the 1st though is Bush's very open standing order to have no strikes under his NMB-
the problem you and I have is corruption within ALPA- short-sightedness and arrogance within the major pilot ranks-

What most pilots ignore as they dutifully cash their union paychecks twice a month are the politics involved in getting you that contract. Go ahead and blame ALPA-
a vague individual-less entity-
I blame pilots for not making ALPA what it used to be and for voting republican which absolutely does not support us or our contracts.

Even if I buy your assertion that Republican politicians are part of the problem I will still vote Republican over Democrat almost every time. Liberal Democrat socialism will do way more to harm to our way of life than an anti-labor NMB. It's not all about the paycheck my friend. There are bigger issues in play. YMMV.

 

[waveflyer]

Then caveman- where's your drive to decertify your union? Why don't you start a campaign for us to all have individual contracts? It all falls short on credibility as long as you are cashing your union paycheck- maybe you ought to focus on getting republicans to support our unions-

No- the socialism issue is a made up one to get your side back in the voting booth-

 

[Caveman]

I can't decertify a union I don't have. I work for B6. We're working on it.....

Unions don't provide paychecks. Employers do.

Maybe I was too vague in my first post. Let me spell it out for you. Foreign policy, national security, taxes, health care, social security, immigration, crime and government intrusion into our lives are all way more important to me than the political leanings of the members of the NMB. I do not vote simply because the candidate may or may not be labor friendly. It's an issue, but I care more about those other issues I mentioned. So far I haven't found a Democrat that thinks like I do about that stuff. Therefore I will continue to vote Republican/Libertarian/Independent.

If you want to be singularly focused on labor issues, knock yourself out. I find it to be somewhat selfish and self serving.

 

[waveflyer]

Then you've made your choice and don't bitch about declining wages.
It's not just selfish- I actually believe unions are a good balancing force and integral in maintaining a solid middle class- which IS good for the country-

 

[Caveman]

I'm not bitching about anything. You were pissing and moaning about pilots voting Republican.

I don't have a problem with private sector unions. I'm part of the organizing effort here at JetBlue. What I do have a problem with is myopic liberals sucking at the teat without any concern for the big picture. There are bigger issues in the world than airline pilot contracts.

 

[Busdriver320]

1st year. And don't forget they use MERIT upgrade.

Here are the FACTS:
Current rates as of June 1, 2010:
Capt (thru highest published) $100-105-110-115-120-125-127-129-131-133

FO (thru highest published) $44-57-65-70-75-80-82-83-84-85

Current upgrades going to late 2nd yr FOs, I believe.

Upgrade DOES NOT GO BACK TO YR 1 CAPT PAY. Longevity is longevity, just like anywhere else, PERIOD. It started as longevity-in-seat but that was discontinued sometime in 2008 as I recall, AND, it was retroactive for everyone affected (probably less than 75 pilots?), meaning when they changed the policy, everyone got a retro check for the difference.

NO merit upgrade. I've been here since 2007 and that WAS NOT the case then and hasn't been since. Pure seniority upgrade, contingent on passing training.

Can it be better? Hell yes. Will we get there? Eventually. Will we vote in a union at some point? Probably. Is QOL good? You bet! I'm in the bottom 50% of Capts and I fly 12 days/month, all commutable.

Other posters have said this, and I will confirm it: we have A LOT of people who feel ALPA has screwed them. Right or wrong, that's how they feel, and good luck getting them to change their minds. Also have a lot of republican-voting, anti-union types as well, so until these folks open their eyes to what's going on at places like Spirit and Allgiant we'll have an uphill battle to collective representation.

 

[relief tube]

all those here arguing that "yeah, they're pitiful but will get better" are missing the point. I have no doubt they will work hard to try to do that.

It's that this industry is now to a point where investors with deep pockets can start multiple airlines with sad rates, and pilots will go there. Those low rates will subsidize more planes and more routes (like Airtrain did with 20% growth for years) and those small players will become big players. Along the way those airlines with all their added competition and low fares will undoubtedly continue to kill this place and lead to more regionals flying routes they shouldn't and mainline guys getting furloughed.

If we wouldn't accept those pithy wages in the first place, those small startups wouldn't become national players.

Pax benefit from way to many airlines out there, but not a single pilot every has.