UX off the runway in ottawa

[Dave's kid]

This is the second TSA overrun in YOW and it seems to be brake-related again.

Here's the story on the first one:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2004/a04o0188/a04o0188.pdf

Not entirely brake related. Had they not not been high, fast, Flaps 22, and touched down half way down the 8000' long runway, the first one would have stopped before the end of the runway.

 

[GCAP]

I just read the report on the first overrun.
Do these guys still have jobs???
Erased the CVR???
Amazing!!

 

[nerjdriver]

I just read the report on the first overrun.
Do these guys still have jobs???
Erased the CVR???
Amazing!!

Do you honestly expect any more from TSA?

 

[johndt]

Do you honestly expect any more from TSA?

easy, man. The TSA pilot group are good people and good pilots in general. We struggle with bad apples and pilots make bad decisions like at any other airline. I'm proud of the women and men that I fly with at TSA.

 

[Rough67]

Do you honestly expect any more from TSA?

Em.. can you elaborate on this? If you are trying to insult me or some of my best friends that used to work there (or still do) drop me a pm so we can discuss..

 

[CX880]

Looks like they used runway 25. They had an extra 2k to play with with the other one.

 

[johndt]

Looks like they used runway 25. They had an extra 2k to play with with the other one.

i doubt anyone here would have refused to accept a landing clearance for 25

 

[CX880]

i doubt anyone here would have refused to accept a landing clearance for 25

Eyewitness reports say that it was heavy rain and runway was slick all day. You have no TRs. At that point it's like landing a minivan in a heavy downpour with no ABS. 2nd TSA jet overrun both with no TRs, just saying...

 

[johndt]

Eyewitness reports say that it was heavy rain and runway was slick all day. You have no TRs. At that point it's like landing a minivan in a heavy downpour with no ABS. 2nd TSA jet overrun both with no TRs, just saying...

So you would have refused to land on runway 25 assuming you had plenty of performance? Let me help you, you would have attempted the same landing. It's easy to second-guess every decision, but if they had the performance, the decision to land on 25 is ok.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Good reading the Canadian report. They, like many other civilised countries do not point the finger. The US, well, I won't be surprised if the next regional fatality puts surviving crew in the clink. Personally, i'd use this kind of opportunity to give the finger to mgmt. And move on to something more humane.

 

[GCAP]

Do you honestly expect any more from TSA?

Actually, back in '97 '98 I had several DL new hires from TSA for IOE.
I was a line check guy, doing the OEs on the 73-200.
The TSA guys were very good---well trained and very professional.
I had a couple a few years later on the -88 and they were just as good.
I hope TSA training has kept up, but I doubt it.

 

[CX880]

I hope TSA training has kept up, but I doubt it.

TSA training is one of the worst in the industry. I was learning new procedures and call outs on my checkride. You'll be lucky if you know what you're supposed to be doing by the time you enter the line.

 

[CX880]

So you would have refused to land on runway 25 assuming you had plenty of performance? Let me help you, you would have attempted the same landing. It's easy to second-guess every decision, but if they had the performance, the decision to land on 25 is ok.

What good is performance if you have no means of stopping? If I was in that crew I would have at least brought up the possibility of landing on the longer runway since no thrust reverses were available and there was heavy rain reported.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Do you honestly expect any more from TSA?

Psh, come at me bro.

 

[johndt]

TSA training is one of the worst in the industry. I was learning new procedures and call outs on my checkride. You'll be lucky if you know what you're supposed to be doing by the time you enter the line.

oh yes, once I enter the line I find much information.

 

[johndt]

What good is performance if you have no means of stopping?

?

question mark

 

[Salukipilot4590]

TSA training is one of the worst in the industry. I was learning new procedures and call outs on my checkride. You'll be lucky if you know what you're supposed to be doing by the time you enter the line.

Whoa, bro, it's called studying remember?

It's that thing you did in school besides drink and chase after sorority women...if that was your thing.

The only people who failed out were those who either didn't take advantage of the study groups at the Pear Tree, actually CALL the mentors on the list given out on day 1, or didn't spend 30-60 minutes in the paper whore at Flight Safety.

Come on bro....you can do better than that.





Son....I am disappoint.

 

[Dornier 335]

woah

TSA training is one of the worst in the industry. I was learning new procedures and call outs on my checkride. You'll be lucky if you know what you're supposed to be doing by the time you enter the line.

Sorry CX880, I gotta have to raise the bs flag on that one*. The training department is probably the toughest and meanest one out there, but they were very strict with SOPs, right from the beginning. If you survived the training at TSA, you were looked at like you came from hell and back (literally!). Talking to other RJ guys at different regionals, I must say that spoon-feeding does not exist in TSA's training department vocabulary.

* <- there could be an exception to the rule, and that is if you had had a FS guy for your training. Some were not up to date with TSA SOPs and caused a little bit of tension.

What good is performance if you have no means of stopping? If I was in that crew I would have at least brought up the possibility of landing on the longer runway since no thrust reverses were available and there was heavy rain reported.

heavy rain reported, eh?

Metars:
CYOW 162000Z 07008KT 3SM -RA BR SCT010 OVC022 15/15 A2981 RMK SF3SC5 SLP097
CYOW 161947Z 07008KT 3SM -RA BR BKN009 OVC020 15/ RMK SF5SC3
CYOW 161900Z 10010KT 6SM -RA BR SCT015 OVC025 16/16 A2983 RMK SF4SC4 SLP102
CYOW 161855Z 10009KT 6SM -RA BR SCT015 OVC025 16/16 RMK SF4SC4
CYOW 161818Z 14012KT 10SM -RA OVC023 16/ RMK SC8
CYOW 161800Z 09009KT 15SM BKN027 OVC050 18/13 A2986 RMK SC6SC2 SLP114
CYOW 161736Z 09008KT 15SM BKN028 OVC050 18/ RMK SC5SC3
CYOW 161700Z 09008G15KT 8SM -RA SCT026 BKN050 OVC100 18/13 A2990 RMK SC3SC3AC2 SLP127
CYOW 161600Z 10008KT 15SM -RA FEW040 BKN085 BKN140 19/12 A2993 RMK SC1AC6AC1 VRY LGT RA SLP135

(I have to admit that I am not familiar anymore with the remarks section)

Before jumping to conclusions, let's hope the crew recovers quickly. The Emb-145 has had a few issues with the anti-skid, so let's cool down before damning the crew!

 

[snap145]

Im sick and freaking tired of those of you who are moronic enough to get on here and attribute the cause for an accident or incident to "well it was a colgan crew, or well it was a TSA crew"....get a freaking life, there are good and bad stick pilots at EVERY airline, yes even you immortal Mesaba pilots could have made the same mistake as this TSA crew did. Chances are, they accepted the landing clearance on 25 bc the performance numbers were completley within the normal realm of operation, even in heavy rain with no reversers. Maybe the anti-skid was deferred, wet is not contaminated, id still never think twice about landing there. Furthermore, after all of the furloughs and downgrades over at TSA, chances are better than not that this was a fairly senior and experienced crew. It could have happened to EVERY one of you that sit here and point fingers. The crew probably did everything in theyre power to keep it on the concrete, despite having a late touchdown (which we have ALL done). Rant complete..lets not crucify these guys until we know the facts.

 

[relief tube]

That may be true, but the Canadians are very good at putting down overlays that offer better traction...

youve never landed in Canada in the winter on a snow covered runway, have you.

It's the only time I've had nil braking. Not the whole time, just at the end, when trying to pull off the rwy.