USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[Jonny Sacko]

You are on crack now. How about age 65? Who was that? I guess you're already a captain, and figure, " ah what the he!! I'll have to make that choice later" What about the ENTIRE MAJORITY of ALPA members.Fckuing Oberstar sent an email saying he wouldn"t have changed his mind if ALPA hadn't joined the party. Remember the LARGEST group of unionized pilots on the planet, so go blow your ALPA diatribe right out your fckuing azz. I hope your arrogant ass gets parted up, and sold for scrap, lets watch your golden shower chunky friend fcuk you followed by your booo hoo then Go fcuk yourself, and take that fcuking chunky Prater with you. ALPA has done NOTHING for this industry, but destroy hard fought rules, squandered leverage away, and given the companies cart blanch over the pilots in the last 20 years. Ya, your ALPA really rocks. Fcuk off!

I couldn't be any more pissed at azzholes like you " ah fellas, it's not that bad, we've got troubles, it'll pass" Blow me!

 

[ualdriver]

You are on crack now. How about age 65? Who was that? I guess you're already a captain, and figure, " ah what the he!! I'll have to make that choice later" What about the ENTIRE MAJORITY of ALPA members.Fckuing Oberstar sent an email saying he wouldn"t have changed his mind if ALPA hadn't joined the party. Remember the LARGEST group of unionized pilots on the planet, so go blow your ALPA diatribe right out your fckuing azz. I hope your arrogant ass gets parted up, and sold for scrap, lets watch your golden shower chunky friend fcuk you followed by your booo hoo then Go fcuk yourself, and take that fcuking chunky Prater with you. ALPA has done NOTHING for this industry, but destroy hard fought rules, squandered leverage away, and given the companies cart blanch over the pilots in the last 20 years. Ya, your ALPA really rocks. Fcuk off!

I couldn't be any more pissed at azzholes like you " ah fellas, it's not that bad, we've got troubles, it'll pass" Blow me!

Whatever medication you're on......double it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are on crack now. How about age 65? Who was that? I guess you're already a captain, and figure, " ah what the he!! I'll have to make that choice later" What about the ENTIRE MAJORITY of ALPA members.Fckuing Oberstar sent an email saying he wouldn"t have changed his mind if ALPA hadn't joined the party. Remember the LARGEST group of unionized pilots on the planet, so go blow your ALPA diatribe right out your fckuing azz. I hope your arrogant ass gets parted up, and sold for scrap, lets watch your golden shower chunky friend fcuk you followed by your booo hoo then Go fcuk yourself, and take that fcuking chunky Prater with you. ALPA has done NOTHING for this industry, but destroy hard fought rules, squandered leverage away, and given the companies cart blanch over the pilots in the last 20 years. Ya, your ALPA really rocks. Fcuk off!

I couldn't be any more pissed at azzholes like you " ah fellas, it's not that bad, we've got troubles, it'll pass" Blow me!

I think UAL driver is simply saying.. despite difficulties stick with with program and not give up...

Resignation, cynicism, apathy, aggression, infighting, blame game, etc.... will contribute to our demise.

 

[cactusboy53]

the short answer? U

Would you be referring to DoUg? The NEW AIRLINE is based in Tempe, AZ dude. What's Lakefield doing now?

 

[Andy]

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

It's not about the amount lost; it's about equality of sacrifices. Some airlines' MECs made shared sacrifices.

Funny how Delta's and Northwest's ex-furloughees don't feel the same way about DALPA and NWALPA.
Could it be:

Their concessionary contracts didn't have the pilots who remained on property flying max hours. Flying max hours minimizes the paycuts of those still on property, while ensuring that those furloughed will be on the street longer.

Included their furloughees in bond payouts.

Delta (not sure about Northwest) gave their furloughees longevity credit.

 

[Marko Ramius]

I'm going to presume that you believe another union and/or a union with more balls wouldn't have given in as much. Looking around at all the concessionary contracts the industry has suffered since 2001 I wonder exactly how much less you think you could've lost.

Nobody seems to like their union when things are tough. Funny how that works.

You would presume wrong then and would be putting words in my mouth. How much less could have been lost? Plenty. The MC at UAL ALPA during the majority of the post 9/11 concessions outside of the last deal in 2005, was Paul Whiteford a furloughee from the last time UA furloughed back in 1978. He was closely aligned with a portion of the union leadership who really thought they could see eye-to-eye and get along with management equitably. His biggest claim to fame beyond his 'stellar' personality was that he achieved A fund furlough longevity credit for the 1978 furloughees along with any future furloughes-previous furloughees were left out. All he wanted was to protect the A fund, preferably at contract 2000 book rates. All other things, including not just furloughees and SJ limits, but pay, narrowbody work rules and rigs, guarantees, minimum fleet size, minimum pilot numbers and so on were a distant second to his goal. When even his committee people couldn't stand what he was doing, he just went around them. Most of UA's concessionary deals were negotiated without the use of the negotiating committee but instead with Whiteford and his handpicked helper. When the communication people couldn't deal with his garbage, he 'supplemented' them with an outside PR firm.

But that's all just more background stuff that illustrates how bad things were and doesn't answer your question as to what I think could/should have been done. First they(meaning the leadership and not the line peeps who by and large were more than willing), should have stepped up to the plate on helping out with COBRA funds like the other ALPA carriers did at the time. The attitude that MEC took on this issue along with the SJ/furlough grievance abeyances was a clear early indicator of where they were going with the furloughees.

Second they could have simply followed their own precedent. The last time UA furloughed people in violation of the contract, they settled those grievances by paying the affected pilots their salaries from when they were furloughed until ALPA settled the grievances and officially sanctioned the furlough. Most of the initial two groups of furlougees were on or just off probation, so they definitely could have used the $$$ along with longevity credit that was proposed and dropped after 'Economic Recovery Plan' I.

As for the rest, they could have just looked across the ALPA hallway at DAL. At the time, Delta and UAL's contract were extremely similar in many of the areas that were relevant here. The difference was that Delta fought their furloughee grievance and won a settlement that forced a recall schedule while UA ALPA didn't even try once after Nov. 2001. They also didn't gut their SJ provisions outside of BK in a shameless attempt to sacrifice jobs for an A fund and the overall size of their current pilot group compared to pre-9/11 shows it compared to what happened at UAL.

Speaking of SJ's, UA ALPA drug their feet on ensuring that their furloughees got a shot at the jobs created by their ignorance of the contract limits. UA pilots were first furloughed at the end of Oct. 2001, yet it wasn't until late 2003-2004 before the first furloughees were hired into UAX carriers and to add insult to injury for the guys who had been out for 2 years they doled the positions out by seniority order. IOW the people who just hit the street got first crack at a limited # of positions, and often left them quickly for other jobs reducing the future job opportunities for nothing. I'm not blaming those guys for leaving, just saying that it wasn't negotiated well especially when you compare it to say the Jets-4-jobs program that a much weaker UsAirways negotiated back during those times.

Also, look at how bad the fcuked over the narrowbody pilots with not only the paycuts, but no rigs, a low guarantee, less min. days off, movable R-days, among other things. You seem to think that I believe that all of this was the result of United being ALPA. It wasn't. It was the result of incredibly poor leadership that had a great deal of complicity from several LEC's and a bunch of pilots who didn't get involved so another union wouldn't change that and I never suggested that it would. Pilot apathy aside though most of these things were the brainchild of ALPA reps, and as such ALPA cannot escape culpability here imo as several of these things should never have even been brought to a vote.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I think UAL driver is simply saying.. despite difficulties stick with with program and not give up...

I know what he's saying man. He's so removed, and comfortable, his life is just fine, he might have to tighten his belt, but hey at least he's got a job, thank ALPA for that!

Resignation, I truly give up, he's an idiot

cynicism, the guy will never learn

apathy, I mean honestly what can I do alone

aggression, f-ing pansies just like his friends

infighting, Don't talk to him that way! He's a captain damn you, He can't be wrong!

blame game, It's not Nationals moronic moves, it's ours for not hanging Prater

etc.... will contribute to our demise.

The only rephrase I'll say is it's not any of our local guys (barring another issue like Marco Ramious described) it's a total lack and a vacuum from Herndon, specifically Chunky and his gang. Worthe was as bad before, but would at least do an annual event! Honestly Chunky's deemed the EZ pass for crew is his "major issue" What a buffoon, how about someone on the news monthly with talking points, such as "pilot pay, we've got Major airline pilots able to collect food stamps, or Crew rest, or work rules, and the list goes on forever. NOTHING but pass 65 as sneaky as possible! That office, besides holding the meal money for chunky and a couple of lawyers is useless!

Hope you're enjoying class there man, and hopefully you won't be lectured by some ass like that. "we're all friends can't we all get along?" Ya, tell his arrogant one to go to right seat and shut up, "it's for the best, we'll ALL benefit, you don't have to work till 65, get it?" Moron, now we must to make up for the lost cash ass holes like pansy boy stole out of our pockets. I do give up, what an ass!

 

[TWA Dude]

It's not about the amount lost; it's about equality of sacrifices. Some airlines' MECs made shared sacrifices.

And some airlines were in worse financial shape than others. I've noticed a bit of a trend: the worse-off the airline the bigger the concessions extracted from the union. Do you disagree?

 

[TWA Dude]

Pilot apathy aside though most of these things were the brainchild of ALPA reps, and as such ALPA cannot escape culpability here imo as several of these things should never have even been brought to a vote.

You have legitimate gripes about your representation and won't take that away from you. My point is that ALPA is the convenient scapegoat. I submit that no other union would've or could've achieved anything substantially better. The economy, the government, bankruptcy court, and the airline's financials are what caused the terrible concessions of the last seven years.

In other words, dumping ALPA will yield no benefits. When the euphoria of the short-sighted USAir East pilots wears off this will become painfully obvious. A new scapegoat will need to be found. My guess is it will be USAPA.

 

[flygirlqt]

a vacuum from Herndon,

That continues to suck dues out of our pockets.