USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[Cobraair75drvr]

Holy ********************! I actually somewhat agree with something JM says. Having flown both domestic/intl fo/now domestic capt I would rather have a system like the euros. Doesn't UPS? Intl. beats you up, hard enough as a youngster. The hard part is going to be able to get pay rates that accuratly take into account the revenue generating ability of your specific airline. Ie if your airline has 100 widebodies which require 1000 capts. then the top 1000 capts get paid that rate based on their seniority number regardless of whether they fly the whale or the 320. Basically a LOS pay scale adjusted for fleet make up.

...now we're getting somewhere.....I hate to say it, but I agree.....

IMO, the European airline system is better....They also pay the same across all aircraft.....It is actually a much better system...the young folks get to do the international stuff and the older people get to stay in the same time zone.....Win-win.....

Now as to the "how"...The only way to convince the top is if they feel their "boat" will be threatened if we don't change.....I don't think anything else will work.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The big hurdle is getting the senior guys to give up thier ivory tower position. What do they get in return..... and do we have the leadership to make it so and the membership support...............

 

[PCL_128]

Disagree completely with you, Rez. Seniority has its privileges, as it should. I have no desire to work every other Christmas when I'm senior. Payscales have steep progressions by design, because you'll spend more time at 12-year pay than you will at 1-year pay. Sorry, I like the current system.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Payscales have steep progressions by design, because you'll spend more time at 12-year pay than you will at 1-year pay. Sorry, I like the current system.

....in this environment maybe not.....Heck you've already spent 3 years at low 1 year payrates....including paying the company for one of those first years....There is a fairly good chance you won't see year 12 pay at Air Tran in this environement.....

Combine this with the time value of money and it would be better to put more money in the beginning years....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Disagree completely with you, Rez. Seniority has its privileges, as it should. I have no desire to work every other Christmas when I'm senior. Payscales have steep progressions by design, because you'll spend more time at 12-year pay than you will at 1-year pay. Sorry, I like the current system.

Understood...

but the current dispairity between the Haves and Have Nots creates a multi faceted division of groups.

It erodes our effectiveness.

Basically what you are saying is the seniority priviledges is equivilent to Having your Cake and Eating it too...

IOW.. not only does the high senior pilot enjoy the job protections of having a majority of the list below him/her... s/he also enjoys the max days off, vacation, pay, etc... Classic 'rich gets richer'...

Isn't being senior and knowing hundreds to thousands will lose thier jobs first....enough?

 

[PCL_128]

Your answer is basically an "everybody is equally miserable" solution. I find that far less appealing than the current system. At least there's a light at the end of the tunnel with the current system. Under your proposal, there is no light. It's all misery for the rest of your career, because you'll never get those 20 day off lines. You'll never be able to count on spending all of your holidays with your family. You'll never get those 4 weeks of vacation. Etc... Sorry, but I don't view that as an improvement.

 

[waveflyer]

a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow--
how many senior pilots are only flying international routes for financial reasons but would rather not?
Widebody pay disparity creates a carrot that we all sacrifice for in the meantime-- that's the wrong ambition-- if the bottom job is a good one- by definition the top will be as well... it's not unionism if the bottom pilot's life sucks...
Right now- a good percentage of pilots in this country are struggling- and there is no sign that management feels this is enough...

 

[PCL_128]

I agree that pay disparity between airframes is a bad idea, and I like the single pay scale system that UPS has, but it's still heavily weighted in the later years, which is something I agree with. That's not to say that a small portion of pay shouldn't be shifted to the first few years to bring them up to more livable wages, but a severe flattening of the pay gradient would be a mistake.

 

[waveflyer]

why do you believe in the "carrot"? is a dollar today worth more than a dollar tomorrow? Sacrificing pay now for pay later is one of the biggest mistakes we make in our careers.

we have to make it easier to change companies so that management can't hold the concession gun to our heads and say they will fold if we don't sign.

The easiest beginning to the solution is upping 1st year pay by a lot-- i've proposed averaging the first 5 years of FO pay--- But if pilots knew that 1st year pay was a livable wage- collectively we wouldn't have rolled over so often this decade...

 

[PCL_128]

You'll spend 20 years at the 12 year rate, but one year at the 2-year rate. Weighting payrates towards the lower years yields less career earnings unless you're above average age at date of hire.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You'll spend 20 years at the 12 year rate, but one year at the 2-year rate. Weighting payrates towards the lower years yields less career earnings unless you're above average age at date of hire.

A valid point... however, how many guys are even making it to 12+ year pay? Plus life beyond 12+ YOS is what section 6 is for....

but a severe flattening of the pay gradient would be a mistake.

Not talking about a severe flattening.... just a gradual shift to a moderate position...

Look at the concessionary TA's of the last six years... Guys were so high in thier Ivory Tower that the fall would have been so devastating... they were willing to give in almost at any cost... and sell out the junior guys... at times under the guise of "when you come back don't you want what I've got!"

Waveflyer has a point in that if switching companies wasn't such an economic hit, then there would be more confidence to fight for what ones has.

For Example... if first year pay was $50-75/hour and 12 year pay was $125-150 hour.. that is workable. The gravely would be in the work rules and prfit sharing. The senior guys have can have more vacation, Personal leave days, more sick time, etc....

This would help negate the need for a national seniorty list....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Understood...

but the current dispairity between the Haves and Have Nots creates a multi faceted division of groups.

It erodes our effectiveness.

WOW....I agree 100% with Rez.....
:beer:

 

[JoeMerchant]

You'll spend 20 years at the 12 year rate, but one year at the 2-year rate. Weighting payrates towards the lower years yields less career earnings unless you're above average age at date of hire.

...if something happens to Air Tran....you will have seen 4 1st. year rates and 4 second year rates before you ever see a 12 year rate....and that 12 year rate may not be hit until you have been in the business for 20 years....

 

[waveflyer]

You'll spend 20 years at the 12 year rate, but one year at the 2-year rate. Weighting payrates towards the lower years yields less career earnings unless you're above average age at date of hire.

rez already said it- this quote assumes that your company will last your career in its current form... that's an assumption that noone can afford to make anymore. even cargo pilots.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Would you be referring to DoUg? The NEW AIRLINE is based in Tempe, AZ dude. What's Lakefield doing now?

I gave the short answer...but...the long answer is that when U was in it's second BK...they were looking for a partner.

Doug told them he was interested but didn't have the money to make the transaction happen. But would LOVE to do it.

Lakefield and Doug then agreed that if this was going to happen, then Lakefield would have to go out and literally, knock on doors to see who would pony up some money to make this deal happen.

Your beloved Doug, just sat on the sidelines and watched this all happen.

Eventually, Lakefield informed Doug...in the US Air private box at a Washington Wizards game...as the last outside investor agreed to put up some money...that they finally had the money to get the deal done. Doug was happy....Lakefield was happy.

And, the deal got done. And you should also know that the maker of the Airbus acft that you probably fly was also one of the outside investors.

Part of the agreement was that Doug and company would be the new management team ( aren't you happy about that?) and that the Headquarters of the new US Airways would be in Tempe, AZ.

Notice that when the new management team was put together, only one former US Air VP was on the staff..and has has now since resigned.

As to your question of what is Lakefield doing now? Who cares? Maybe hanging out with Bill Franke for all we know...drinking, laughing and counting their money

Now you know....

 

[Tejas-Jet]

A story I heard a few weeks ago: At American a DC-10 FE was getting furloughed flying his last trips. --->You mean he couldn't bid back to the 727 panel before he went out the door?The CA and FO were talking about thier toys as the CA pulled out pictures of his boat named "Open Time". --->I know a Capt here at "my house" who recently retired and his boat is also named "Open Time"...had a heck of a retirement party on that boat.