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USAPA Trial

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Heyas,

Not taking sides, BUT, DFR cases have traditionally been EXTREMELY tough to prove, let alone collect from.

The common man has no love of unions, and this is looking just like a lovers spat to most people (IE a jurist).

Before the west (or east) guys get their hopes up too high for a slam dunk, be ready for a verdict from left field.

Nu
 
Crzipilot said:
Yes, and a democratic vote is not grounds for dfr, just because you are outnumbered......
Click to expand...

So using your logic, if we merged with the larger NEW Delta and "we the pilots" wanted to democratically vote to staple the smaller NEW USAir pilots to the bottom of the list, you would be OK with that? Riiiiiiight.:rolleyes:
 
JohnQ said:
Gee that's funny. I've had lots of DAL guys claim the same thing (that they got screwed). I guess it was a pretty fair integration after all?

And how would a USAPA-like in-house union make things better? Oh, it wouldn't.
Click to expand...

All I heard during the trial was how the West was going to be protected. Over and over again, protected, protected, protected.

The truth is USAPA was wearing protection while we get the shaft!
 
Captzaahlie said:
Excuse me , that was not a "purchase" or "merge" your company had to pay to play....

Airways sucked a fee out of your company just to let you have the 'privilege" to fly for them....
This "investment" gave new meaning to the term outsourcing a contract carrier!
Click to expand...



You do realize that had that "investment" not been "sucked out of (their) company "; US east might have very well been forced to liquidate taking Piedmont and PSA down along with it. You do realize that, don't you ?


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
PHXFLYR said:
You do realize that had that "investment" not been "sucked out of (their) company "; US east might have very well been forced to liquidate taking Piedmont and PSA down along with it. You do realize that, don't you ?


PHXFLYR:cool:
Click to expand...

Yes I realize that X 4... during those times i was applying for sim. instructor positions because I thought Airways was about to go t1ts up. (not many other places were hiring at the time either if I recall correctly). Not only did I realize that I was one of the red headed step children immersed in that realization.

My point is that it was a business transaction, those pilots have no rights to be attached to any Airways seniority list because of it. I'm not bashing that pilot group, but the few that think they deserve some kind of 'flow" rights are in never, never land.

Did i happen to mention that i realized that?
 
captfred said:
You are kidding-right?? Doug is the most happy guy on the planet with the 2 groups fighting with permanent B scale wages and working conditions in place.
Click to expand...

Yep, the status quo is just fine with Doug. Another perfect example of dumb pilots making idiot managers look like geniuses.
 
Captzaahlie said:
Yes I realize that X 4... during those times i was applying for sim. instructor positions because I thought Airways was about to go t1ts up. (not many other places were hiring at the time either if I recall correctly). Not only did I realize that I was one of the red headed step children immersed in that realization.

My point is that it was a business transaction, those pilots have no rights to be attached to any Airways seniority list because of it. I'm not bashing that pilot group, but the few that think they deserve some kind of 'flow" rights are in never, never land.

Did i happen to mention that i realized that?
Click to expand...


Agreed...but a guy can dream, can't he ... ???;)


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
Captzaahlie said:
My point is that it was a business transaction, those pilots have no rights to be attached to any Airways seniority list because of it. I'm not bashing that pilot group, but the few that think they deserve some kind of 'flow" rights are in never, never land.

Did i happen to mention that i realized that?
Click to expand...

And AWA and USAir merging wasn't a business transaction? I just find what people define as "saving" or "merging" are not hard definitions but really fuzzy logic.

And don't take my assertions seriously as in I'm seeking placement on your seniority list. The point I'm making in this whole East/West seniority list arguement is that anyone can argue anything. It seems everyone is just trying to be the one shouting loudest so they seem most right.

ALPA East was wrong for strict DOH only. AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list. Their planes were on USAir cert. If West wants support/sympathy then they should right that wrong too.

IMO of course.
 
DiverDriver said:
ALPA East was wrong for strict DOH only. AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list. Their planes were on USAir cert. If West wants support/sympathy then they should right that wrong too.

IMO of course.
Click to expand...

Rights and wrongs were settled by the agreed upon process with the agreed upon arbitrator making the call. Now it's time for folks to honor final and binding and move on.
 
TWA Dude said:
What we think is irrelevent. Nicolau knew all about the MDA pilots (furloughees) and he made his decision. That's what arbitrators do.
Click to expand...


That's what I don't get! Two parties will NEVER agree on something that they are so emotional about. I don't understand what could be more fair than the process that took place to get the combined seniority list. There were three NEUTRAL people who heard each side's case, talked it over, and decided on a list! Why is it that the East pilots are still back at square one, trying to tell the West pilots what fair should be?

And for Crzipilot to say that majority vote ("democratic") is fair in this situtation, is simply wrong. If that was the case, then why even have a process; whether it be DOH, ratio's, arbitrators or whatever, in place??? If a majority vote was THE fair way to do a list, then the smaller of the two pilot groups should just resign themselves to being stapled to the bottom.

I think most of the East pilots will just never get it... that's what I'm resigned to.
 
DiverDriver said:
And AWA and USAir merging wasn't a business transaction? I just find what people define as "saving" or "merging" are not hard definitions but really fuzzy logic.

And don't take my assertions seriously as in I'm seeking placement on your seniority list. The point I'm making in this whole East/West seniority list arguement is that anyone can argue anything. It seems everyone is just trying to be the one shouting loudest so they seem most right.

ALPA East was wrong for strict DOH only. AWA was wrong thinking Nic was right if MidAtlantic was left off the list. Their planes were on USAir cert. If West wants support/sympathy then they should right that wrong too.

IMO of course.
Click to expand...





Sooooooo using your line of thinking explain this.

A furloughed 2 and 1/2 year Mainline pilot, hired in 1999, decides not to go to MidAtlantic because he has a better job elsewhere. MidAtlantic cannot find enough takers, cause the pay sucks so they offer the positions to the WO pilots in 2003 The WO pilots stay at midAlantic for 4 years. You now think it's fair that the WO pilot is slotted ABOVE a pilot that actually flew a mainlie airplane even though 1. the WO pilot NEVER applied to USAir, 2. the WO pilot was hired YEARS AFTER the furloughed Mainline pilot.

Wake up man you KNEW MidAtlantic was NOT mainline. Everyone know MDA was a WO carrier. You're just trying to grab more more seniority that you don't deserve. You fit in well as a member of the PO'd fo club. You should be proud.
 
DustyBottoms said:
That's what I don't get! Two parties will NEVER agree on something that they are so emotional about. I don't understand what could be more fair than the process that took place to get the combined seniority list. There were three NEUTRAL people who heard each side's case, talked it over, and decided on a list! Why is it that the East pilots are still back at square one, trying to tell the West pilots what fair should be?

And for Crzipilot to say that majority vote ("democratic") is fair in this situtation, is simply wrong. If that was the case, then why even have a process; whether it be DOH, ratio's, arbitrators or whatever, in place??? If a majority vote was THE fair way to do a list, then the smaller of the two pilot groups should just resign themselves to being stapled to the bottom.

I think most of the East pilots will just never get it... that's what I'm resigned to.
Click to expand...


...and they never will.:(

PHXFLYR:cool:
 
m80drvr said:
Sooooooo using your line of thinking explain this.

A furloughed 2 and 1/2 year Mainline pilot, hired in 1999, decides not to go to MidAtlantic because he has a better job elsewhere. MidAtlantic cannot find enough takers, cause the pay sucks so they offer the positions to the WO pilots in 2003 The WO pilots stay at midAlantic for 4 years. You now think it's fair that the WO pilot is slotted ABOVE a pilot that actually flew a mainlie airplane even though 1. the WO pilot NEVER applied to USAir, 2. the WO pilot was hired YEARS AFTER the furloughed Mainline pilot.

Wake up man you KNEW MidAtlantic was NOT mainline. Everyone know MDA was a WO carrier. You're just trying to grab more more seniority that you don't deserve. You fit in well as a member of the PO'd fo club. You should be proud.
Click to expand...

First off there were no Wo pilots at MDA until 2004, all were furloughed by may 2006. Not exactly 4 years, no?
MDA was NEVER a WO, they tried the FAA said no way, no matter how much you try to spin it, the fact remains!
I have no problem if your opinion is you believe everything the East claims is BS, as I know that makes your position more believable in your eyes. But you can not fabricate crap to try an justify your position, just man up and admit you want those guys removed so there is no chance they could ever effect your position. Just like your old MEC's position that the WO should be removed, not just placed at the bottom of the list.
Claims of integrity and pure as the driven snow rightousness just dont hold up when you start making crap up.
Most people dont buy it when one side claims they are 100% correct and the other is 100% wrong, as that is never the case.
 
m80drvr said:
Wake up man you KNEW MidAtlantic was NOT mainline. Everyone know MDA was a WO carrier. You're just trying to grab more more seniority that you don't deserve. You fit in well as a member of the PO'd fo club. You should be proud.
Click to expand...


I don't work at USAir, MDA, or AWA. I just commented on the arguements made. Thanks for ASSuming something.

As for the MDA being a wholy owned and not mainline do PSA and PDT have seperate operating certificates or are they on USAir cert too?
 
It's simple: MDA was on the the USAir ops cert but was operated as a seperate entity with no ability to crossbid to mainline. Whether this was right or wrong is not for AWA pilots to say. But MDA was not mainline.
 
TWA Dude said:
It's simple: MDA was on the the USAir ops cert but was operated as a seperate entity with no ability to crossbid to mainline. Whether this was right or wrong is not for AWA pilots to say. But MDA was not mainline.
Click to expand...

A west pilot cant bid for a 330 position as of this moment, so I guess they are not real Airways pilots.

Contractual language does not always define who you actually work for.

West pilot
cant cross bid east widebodys
Yet somehow this pilot works for US Air, gets paid by US Air, uses US Air call sign, operates under the US Air certificate, is on the US Air seniority roster, (position obviously up for argument) but on the list.
 
Last edited:
DustyBottoms said:
That's what I don't get! Two parties will NEVER agree on something that they are so emotional about. I don't understand what could be more fair than the process that took place to get the combined seniority list. There were three NEUTRAL people who heard each side's case, talked it over, and decided on a list! Why is it that the East pilots are still back at square one, trying to tell the West pilots what fair should be?

And for Crzipilot to say that majority vote ("democratic") is fair in this situation, is simply wrong. If that was the case, then why even have a process; whether it be DOH, ratio's, arbitrators or whatever, in place??? If a majority vote was THE fair way to do a list, then the smaller of the two pilot groups should just resign themselves to being stapled to the bottom.

I think most of the East pilots will just never get it... that's what I'm resigned to.
Click to expand...


Yes - there was three neutral people (if you call three ALPA pilots from various airlines each with possibly their own agenda) who heard each side's case - but if you re-read the award - it was not unanimous - one person dissented.

Metrojet
 
Yawwwwnnnnn....somebody wake me when we find out what civilians think of rich airline pilots whining, crying, complaining about each other.
 
FR8mastr said:
A west pilot cant bid for a 330 position as of this moment, so I guess they are not real Airways pilots.
Click to expand...
Funny you should say that. My W2, paystub and direct-deposit info still reads "America West". So you're right, despite my badge and the paint job on my airplanes I'm actually not a US Airways pilot. I'll try to hide my disappointment.

But back to what I wrote, I'll type it again slowly. MDA was seperate from mainline because that's how management operated it. How you feel about it is irrelevent. Arbitrator Nicolau fully understood the situation when he ruled on it.
 
Last edited:
MDA aircraft had a big "EXPRESS" written on the side! No mainline active employee has ever flown an aircraft with "EXPRESS" on the side. Could you bid the airbus while employed at the elite"Embraer Division"? Spin it all you want, you were not an active mainline pilot while at MDA.
 
Metrojet said:
Yes - there was three neutral people (if you call three ALPA pilots from various airlines each with possibly their own agenda) who heard each side's case - but if you re-read the award - it was not unanimous - one person dissented.

Metrojet
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, I have good memory, it's just short, but weren't there only two ALPA neutrals, and one neutral arbitrator? And the only dissent was that one of the pilot neutrals thought that the furloughed east guys should be included in the ratioed list.

So, even if the list went according to the oddball, it would still look nothing like a DOH list.

Typical answer though: "the arbitrators were biased". Apparently everyone who disagrees with the East is either biased or high on something.
 
DustyBottoms said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, I have good memory, it's just short, but weren't there only two ALPA neutrals, and one neutral arbitrator? And the only dissent was that one of the pilot neutrals thought that the furloughed east guys should be included in the ratioed list.

So, even if the list went according to the oddball, it would still look nothing like a DOH list.

Typical answer though: "the arbitrators were biased". Apparently everyone who disagrees with the East is either biased or high on something.
Click to expand...


I WILL correct you.....because you ARE wrong about the opinion of the neutrals. The neutrals agreed with the NIC decision overall.

One of the neutrals did have a problem with the pilots that had been recalled AFTER the merger/buyout was announced, after the PID date I believe. He thought that those and ONLY those pilots should have been considered active. Nic and the other neutral realized that the ONLY reason those pilots were recalled was due to the merger/buyout. Otherwise they would still be on the street OR USAir would be out of business. The opinion of the neutral did NOT include ALL furloughed pilots.

You are correct in that it was NIC and two neutrals.
 
FR8mastr said:
...
Most people dont buy it when one side claims they are 100% correct and the other is 100% wrong, as that is never the case.
Click to expand...

The only clear sound to ever come out of this sea of noise, right there.
 

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