Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
USAirways Pilots Offer 12% Pay Cut
- Thread starter 767-300ER
- Start date
- Watchers 17
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
furloughfodder
Membar
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2004
- Posts
- 508
AA717driver
A simpler time...
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 4,908
Sorry guys, but the same statements were made about TWA and PanAm back in the '90's. The ugly truth is that when one airline takes pay cuts, it will take years for them to recover(if they stay in business) AND it does hurt every other pilot's chances at a pay raise when times improve.
This whole DAL v. RJDC and AA v. AE debate must warm the hearts of every airline exec out there. This kind of division is exactly what they dream about.
Now, I wonder where those USAir gate agents are who made snide comments about TWA's financial position to my wife when she was riding on them with ID90's... Oh yeah, working their second jobs... "TWA? Oh, they're 'brand X'." Now who's "brand X" mother****er?!
Be careful who you look down on. One day you may be in the same boat.TC
This whole DAL v. RJDC and AA v. AE debate must warm the hearts of every airline exec out there. This kind of division is exactly what they dream about.
Now, I wonder where those USAir gate agents are who made snide comments about TWA's financial position to my wife when she was riding on them with ID90's... Oh yeah, working their second jobs... "TWA? Oh, they're 'brand X'." Now who's "brand X" mother****er?!
Be careful who you look down on. One day you may be in the same boat.TC
I can understand that you get tired of hearing that the Delta subsidiaries are "subzidizing the mainline." I just have to ask -- has it occured to you that we (CMR and ASA) are equally tired of hearing you imply that you subsidize us and that the "drain" on your exchequer result from the purchase of our aircraft?DAL737FO said:
I can't speak for ASA but with respect to Comair you might give this some thought. The majority of the aircraft than Comair operates were bought and paid for by Comair before Delta paid nearly $1.9 billions to acquire our company, against our will. You might further consider that prior to our acquisition, we were far more profitable than we are today. Nowadays, thanks to our ownerniship by Delta, Comair is lucky to show an $88 million dollar (I think that was the number) profit on the books that you claim Delta management may be doctoring. Before we were blessed with your largess and were an independent airline with our own undoctored books, stock and 10-K, Comair's annual profit approached $300 millions and we were the second most profitable (based on invested capital - ROI) airline in the world. It seems Delta's "expertise" of ownership has done nothing more than reduce our profitability.
I woudn't know who is subsidizing whom. It is true that we are bigger now than we were when Delta "bought" us. It is also true that we were better off (more profitable) as an independent and it is highly probable that we would be bigger than we are today if our little company had NOT been taken over by your dinosaur. If only we could turn back the clock.
Sorry you're miffed buddy but sometimes the truth has to be told. Perhaps if you had been at Delta longer you might understand why your company bought ours, paid what it did, took a wasteful $700 million dollar strike, and still "owns" one of the most efficient and profitable "regional" airlines in the country. Just understand that you didn't do us any favors, haven't done us any favors and are in fact dam*ed lucky that you were able to buy us when you did. Otherwise we would long since have run you out of you second largest hub, which without our presence is not financially viable.
Roosters shouldn't crow until they are certain that the sun is rising and they are not just looking at reflections from the farmers slaughter house. The industry is a mess and all of us are in trouble. However, we of Comair are an asset to Delta not a liability. Maybe your situation makes you not like that but it is nevertheless true. We do not owe Delta nor the Delta pilots for our success. It was there before you bought us and has been maintained, though to a lesser degree, despite the acquisition. Perhaps your management is expert at running a "legacy carrier" (doubtful) but nobody does a better job of running a regional than Comair. There's more than 25 years of history to back that up.
Today's market is our cup of tea. Hopefully in the future, your markets can be rrestored or you can learn to adapt to the changing tide. We wish you well,
No hard feelings.
XRMEFLYER
Semi-Turgid Member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
- Posts
- 453
You got it right private, "all your talk."General Lee said:
BTW I was not referring to your being a sensitive soul and how caring you are about the plight of your furloughs or the spotted owl for that matter. It was your self righteous posts, nearly 3000 of them now, bashing DCI and blaming others for things they have nothing to do with.
I'm glad you liked the sign off you oxygen thief! You could use some new material anyway.
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Ream-me,
I wouldn't mind flying an RJ--but they are probably on "their way out" and Dalpa will undoubtably negotiate low mainline pay scales for new 100 seaters that benefit the company--and bring back the furloughs slowly. That is how it worked on the '96 contract with Delta Express and their lower pay scales. Or, there will be some J4J deal made. So, if I see you on the ramp--please go out to the plane and do the walk around early--I don't want you to get wet in the rain....
767-200,
Say what you want about DL pilots---my intention was not to slam USAir guys--and with this new flightinfo format--I could not edit it after 10 minutes. It did not come out the way I wanted it to, and it was too late to change it. I am done explaining what happened. Take it or leave it....
Bye Bye--General Lee
I wouldn't mind flying an RJ--but they are probably on "their way out" and Dalpa will undoubtably negotiate low mainline pay scales for new 100 seaters that benefit the company--and bring back the furloughs slowly. That is how it worked on the '96 contract with Delta Express and their lower pay scales. Or, there will be some J4J deal made. So, if I see you on the ramp--please go out to the plane and do the walk around early--I don't want you to get wet in the rain....
767-200,
Say what you want about DL pilots---my intention was not to slam USAir guys--and with this new flightinfo format--I could not edit it after 10 minutes. It did not come out the way I wanted it to, and it was too late to change it. I am done explaining what happened. Take it or leave it....
Bye Bye--General Lee
Tim47SIP
Serving for the USofA
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 1,157
So we, meaning mainline, finance $500 million this year for jets we, meaning mainline pilots, don't even get to fly AND about 1/3 of our debt for 2004 is due to RJ financing. So tell me again how you subsidize the mainline pilots?
737FO
I am not going to get into the who makes more profit thing. You are correct in that Delta can cook the books anyway it wants. But, prior to the C2K signing, Leo stated that "in order to pay the pilots the requested amount, we will have to use most of the profits generated by ASA and Comair". This was stated in a BOD meeting when he was informing them about the specifics of the contract. He also told this to the Delta MEC who seemed untouched by the statement. There were many analysts to include Holley of Planebusiness, M boyd, etc that stated if Delta agreed to the wage increase that Delta would not be profitable. This is why Leo had to bring up the above reference. Is it true? I don't have a clue. Just food for thought.
General
Airtran and Jetblue are growing---in our backyard. We need to offer flights that compete on a price and comfort level---or we will lose.
You are absolutely correct. But to do this, we have to emulate their cost structure or there is no way we can compete. By we, I mean all of us, not just the mainline pilots.
We are the only ones being asked for cash at our airline, and even with a 30% pay cut, we will still be the highest paid, and we have slowed down this process to think it through--not just give it away.
First of all, I though you stated that it was GG who refused to negotiate. Now you are saying it was DALPA slowing down the process to think it through. I guess it really doesn't matter but I think that by "slowing down the process", the 30% you quote above is way off. The longer DALPA waits (as GG has stated), the more the cut will have to be. I fully understand the need for a viable plan and not wanting to give up the farm, but it is also evident that DALPA is trying to keep max pay to the last day. I think (opinion) that your overall compensation package will be a 45-50 percent reduction rather than 30 percent. I certainly hope it stays the highest in the industry for your sake. If it does go the BK route though, the resultant compensation package would be way worse than anything GG offered.
On another note, GG has stated several times in person and in writing that he WILL NOT negotiate. He has stated that the compensation package would be the minimum needed and that there will be no negotiating. I am sure you could trade certain QOL items for others or cash, but he seems determined to force the issue with or without BK. I really don't think that DALPA is the ones holding the advantage in this circumstance. Best of luck though.
737FO
I am not going to get into the who makes more profit thing. You are correct in that Delta can cook the books anyway it wants. But, prior to the C2K signing, Leo stated that "in order to pay the pilots the requested amount, we will have to use most of the profits generated by ASA and Comair". This was stated in a BOD meeting when he was informing them about the specifics of the contract. He also told this to the Delta MEC who seemed untouched by the statement. There were many analysts to include Holley of Planebusiness, M boyd, etc that stated if Delta agreed to the wage increase that Delta would not be profitable. This is why Leo had to bring up the above reference. Is it true? I don't have a clue. Just food for thought.
General
Airtran and Jetblue are growing---in our backyard. We need to offer flights that compete on a price and comfort level---or we will lose.
You are absolutely correct. But to do this, we have to emulate their cost structure or there is no way we can compete. By we, I mean all of us, not just the mainline pilots.
We are the only ones being asked for cash at our airline, and even with a 30% pay cut, we will still be the highest paid, and we have slowed down this process to think it through--not just give it away.
First of all, I though you stated that it was GG who refused to negotiate. Now you are saying it was DALPA slowing down the process to think it through. I guess it really doesn't matter but I think that by "slowing down the process", the 30% you quote above is way off. The longer DALPA waits (as GG has stated), the more the cut will have to be. I fully understand the need for a viable plan and not wanting to give up the farm, but it is also evident that DALPA is trying to keep max pay to the last day. I think (opinion) that your overall compensation package will be a 45-50 percent reduction rather than 30 percent. I certainly hope it stays the highest in the industry for your sake. If it does go the BK route though, the resultant compensation package would be way worse than anything GG offered.
On another note, GG has stated several times in person and in writing that he WILL NOT negotiate. He has stated that the compensation package would be the minimum needed and that there will be no negotiating. I am sure you could trade certain QOL items for others or cash, but he seems determined to force the issue with or without BK. I really don't think that DALPA is the ones holding the advantage in this circumstance. Best of luck though.
xtreme/surplus1
we are going to have to agree to disagree. Believe it or not I wish you guys were a separate entity as all this infighting is counterproductive. What I really need to do is contain my searches on this board to the corporate section (that's were I pick up my contract work)
I have my recall date to Delta and I'll go when the time is right. I believe that all and all Delta will do alright and I'll finish up my next remaining 24 years there.
B-727 Freight Dawg
we are going to have to agree to disagree. Believe it or not I wish you guys were a separate entity as all this infighting is counterproductive. What I really need to do is contain my searches on this board to the corporate section (that's were I pick up my contract work)
I have my recall date to Delta and I'll go when the time is right. I believe that all and all Delta will do alright and I'll finish up my next remaining 24 years there.
B-727 Freight Dawg
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
Guys and Gals,
Chill out, all this stress is hard on the ticker and management loves it!
UAIR management has made some bad choices along the way, guess who is paying for it? The employees in general and the pilots in particular. Look at UAL, great company, great employees, lackluster management. Who gets the bill, the employees!
All this DAL,CMR and ASA crap aside, the sooner y'all realize you play for the same team, the better. Just like Song, despite how you all feel, you are part of mother Delta!
The DAL pilots, despite their perceived arrogance, is helping us all, by standing firm on getting a deal and more importantly, seeing a plan, that will lead them to profitability. Yes, GG says he will not negotiate, but he is going to have to. A contract is a contract! If a company is to face cuts in expenses, it would be unfair, and unwise fiscally, to put the entire burden on one group.
The CMR pilots went on strike, to get a liveable wage, yet some feel the "overpaid" DAL pilots should just give GG what he wants. Sorry, must call BS on that one.
If J.O. at Mesa gets hold of 73 and deploys them, with freedumb pilots and profitably manages to compete with us all, our pay will soon see the crapper.
People are already linning up to fly for VirginUSA, although no one knows of the pay. That should give you time to pause. People like the ones who PFT, are more than willing to sell this down the river, figuring that a great job will be at the end of the rainbow, but if we all keep being asked to give, it will cease to be a great job.
Chill out, all this stress is hard on the ticker and management loves it!
UAIR management has made some bad choices along the way, guess who is paying for it? The employees in general and the pilots in particular. Look at UAL, great company, great employees, lackluster management. Who gets the bill, the employees!
All this DAL,CMR and ASA crap aside, the sooner y'all realize you play for the same team, the better. Just like Song, despite how you all feel, you are part of mother Delta!
The DAL pilots, despite their perceived arrogance, is helping us all, by standing firm on getting a deal and more importantly, seeing a plan, that will lead them to profitability. Yes, GG says he will not negotiate, but he is going to have to. A contract is a contract! If a company is to face cuts in expenses, it would be unfair, and unwise fiscally, to put the entire burden on one group.
The CMR pilots went on strike, to get a liveable wage, yet some feel the "overpaid" DAL pilots should just give GG what he wants. Sorry, must call BS on that one.
If J.O. at Mesa gets hold of 73 and deploys them, with freedumb pilots and profitably manages to compete with us all, our pay will soon see the crapper.
People are already linning up to fly for VirginUSA, although no one knows of the pay. That should give you time to pause. People like the ones who PFT, are more than willing to sell this down the river, figuring that a great job will be at the end of the rainbow, but if we all keep being asked to give, it will cease to be a great job.
blzr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Posts
- 1,502
"HEy Mav, do you remember the # of that truckdriving school we saw on television, Truckmaster I think it is......."
Goose seeing his career dissipation light go into high gear.
If Mesa gets those 73's, the General will be driving a Peterbuilt with 'neked' ladies on the mudflaps. (or maybe he already does).
There, I did it. I turned this into a Mesa bashing thread.
Goose seeing his career dissipation light go into high gear.
If Mesa gets those 73's, the General will be driving a Peterbuilt with 'neked' ladies on the mudflaps. (or maybe he already does).
There, I did it. I turned this into a Mesa bashing thread.
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
eightdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2002
- Posts
- 157
Full of LUV
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2002
- Posts
- 1,021
XRMEFLYER You need help
XRMEFLYER
Please put the can of Schlitz Beer down, take a night off from beating the wife and seek some professional help!
How can someone live with your amount of hate and pent up rage? You need to remember that in the end IT'S JUST A JOB!
Take a deep breath and please consider some anger counseling.
Ciao
XRMEFLYER
Please put the can of Schlitz Beer down, take a night off from beating the wife and seek some professional help!
How can someone live with your amount of hate and pent up rage? You need to remember that in the end IT'S JUST A JOB!
Take a deep breath and please consider some anger counseling.
Ciao
satpak77
Marriott Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2003
- Posts
- 3,015
Share this page
Latest posts
-
Question Any Other NXCub Drivers Out There?- Latest: lrobichaux
-
-
-
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
