USAirways Pilots Offer 12% Pay Cut

[Dizel8]

Well, not that he needs it, I will still come the generals defense. I think you all are reading too much into what he said. As pilots takes concessions, it will move the target further down, because all management wants to do is to compete and in order to do that, they must lower cost. Pilots are the easiest target, one, since we make the most and second, because we are married to the seniority system.

UAIR, via MAA or MDA I cannot remember, has essentially set the bar for the E-170 and the 190. With this, I can only predict, that anything with less seats will see less pay. It may not happen tomorrow or the next day, but it will happen eventually. Just wait until GG brings his powerpoint presentation to Comair. You have already seen them play Comair against ASA, that will not change.

UAL, if they do not get the loan, will come asking the pilots again for a paycut and they will probably agree to something, heck, they may even give away the pension and that will be ugly. For all of us.

For the longest time it was SWA, then it was jetblue, it may end up being UAIR that gets blamed for the decrease in our wages. Only time will tell. Can I blame the UAIR pilots, heck no, they are indeed fighting for their livelyhood.

I envy the pay at DAL, although not the culture, I think anyone flying a 777 should make 300K+ if not more, we all want to be rich and retire early. As the top goes down, the bottom gets lower.

So cut the Gen. some slack, because GG will be coming after his pay and the moving target just went lower.

 

[dlredline]

Dizel8,

I respectfully disagree. I cut no one slack who kicks a downed, bloodied and wounded group trying to make the best of an extremely bad situation. The industry is shifting permanently, and for mulitple reasons. To pin it on this one group is naive, and his statement was IMHO profoundly insulting.

Red

 

[100LL... Again!]

Methinks the General is trying to dig himself out of a little freudian slip.


Let's revisit his original quote:

They are fighting for their lives over there, and bringing down the rest of the industry.

Now, the honorable General wants us to believe this:

Hey, if you read my quote again you can see that I know they are fighting for their lives---and at the same time the industry is going down with them. You can think it was a slam, but it wasn't. I was saying that most of our wages are going down with them. Read into that any way you want to--it is true.

Perhaps you should consider a career in politics?

Your original intent was clear as crystal. Please do not further insult our intelligence by suggesting we misread such a blatant statement.

You must have a very poor grip on the English language if you think
sentence #1=sentence #2.

Let me explain the way the word 'and' works in your original sentence.

"And" is used to join two actions attributable to one person/thing, etc.

This is what your original statement meant.

"They are fighting for their lives over there, AND THEY ARE bringing down the rest of the industry."

I would suggest some tutoring in English, but I don't believe that it was a mistake.

Now I hope you get a 50% cut. For an attitude like that, you "deserve" it.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,

Econ 101, huh? The only way to combat lower fares is to have more seats available on each plane to spread out the costs. A 50 seat RJ and low fares do not work well together. Sure, there is excess capacity out there---but there are also LCCs. They have driven the fares down---and it will be interesting to see if Independance can be profitable using mostly CRJ-200s. They will need to run those things 15 hours a day to have a chance at squeezing out some revenue---and with bad wx and constant ground delays in the NE---it will be a sight to see.

General, you said:

"The only way to combat lower fares is to have more seats available on each plane to spread out the costs."
Are you agreeing with management that the only solution is to reduce costs? I thought you wanted to increase revenue? The only way to increase revenue is to DECREASE the seats available. Using your logic, maybe DAL should put 777 on each route. I doubt that would "spread out the costs" as you say. I suspect that would send DAL to the courthouse steps. Your lack of knowledge on economic matters is really showing General.

 

[100LL... Again!]

And I guess that they're breathing your air too, General?

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8 actually backed me up! Thank you. Well, most of you may not understand exactly what I meant---and I was trying to point out that those guys at USAir were trying to keep their jobs and doing what they had to--but in the process ALL of us are having our wages lowered. That isn't only due to USAir and their problems--but the Major Carriers and their finacial woes. Remember, this new Flightinfo format does not allow me to edit after 10 mins---and if I wrote something that might have been misconstrued---I couldn't even change it if I wanted to. Looking at it again---it did sound harsh--- and I couldn't edit it after ten minutes----but I was trying to say something in the line of "As they fight for their lives, all of our wages are getting lowered too." I think "Red" wants to believe that I could be mean---but I am not and I love this job and enjoy all parts of this industry. If I could re-word that last part of my statement--I would--and it would be reworded to better show what I actually meant. And, by the way, I will be taking Jack Ryan's place for Senate in the Illinois race-----and I never took my wife to a sex club......Please send your donations to "General Lee for Senate, then President, then Dalpa MEC Chair......"


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[StopNTSing]

Take a chill-pill dlredline & the rest of you!

Dizel8,

I respectfully disagree. I cut no one slack who kicks a downed, bloodied and wounded group trying to make the best of an extremely bad situation. The industry is shifting permanently, and for mulitple reasons. To pin it on this one group is naive, and his statement was IMHO profoundly insulting.

Red

The General merely uttered a blinding statement of the obvious. The truth ain't always pretty and sometimes it hurts...but it's still the truth. The sad fact is that there are too many bodies in the lifeboat, and until someone(s) are pitched overboard, the whole boat is in jeopardy. The airlines have NO pricing power because there are too many of them trying to chase too few premium-fare passengers (who have indeed declined in numbers for multiple reasons...not just, for example, those pesky LCC's ). So they keep putting a gun to the head of labor for more & more concessions, ala UAIR. The question is...how low will the UAIR unions be willing to go in pay & QOL before they finally call RSA's hand and tell Bronner to liquidate? It's not for me to say...I don't know that I'd fare any better in their shoes. But it IS undeniably dragging down the profession! Witness UAL and AMR. The best way to keep pilot salaries up is to have profitable airlines. The sooner that happens, the happier we all will be.


P.S. Keep fighting the good fight, General. You DALPA guys are the only ones left who can still lay claim to "pilots defending the profession."

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

It’s a passionate subject to talk about, pay cuts and the state of the industry. I think if you look at the Generals statement without reading anything into it, he's right, and I agree with him. I also think that the guys at US Airways (or any other airline fighting to stay afloat) should do whatever they can to save their jobs and lively hood without concern to the status of the industry, short of crossing a strike line that is. Hopefully we will all see this one through to greener pastures.



The RJ is great, better than a turboprop, not better than a MD-80. It’s not the savior of the industry like many RJ pilots believe. It has its place for sure and its definitely had a effect on the industry, however, if there are too many, all the wannabe's who want to fly heavy equipment one day, can kiss that dream goodbye. I’m not flaming, just giving my honest opinion. I flew at the regionals for 4 years, it was great, sometimes I miss the good "ole times" but I always wanted to make it to the majors, and it’s gonna be an obstacle for many in the future...



BIGBROWNDC8

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

What a sh!ty thread!!!

Hey, don't fart at my fiesta! Time to show you guys the door.

General.....you are at risk of being "fragged!"

LOL

 

[General Lee]

Jeff,

What? I never said I wanted any company to go out of business. It is true, unfortunately, that all of our wages are collectively coming down---and it is unfortunate that the USAir guys HAVE TO go lower for their own survival. I can understand that, but I don't have to like it. I wish we were all getting better. We can only hope for better days ahead. Take it or leave it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[aroundtheblock]

Let's look at this new proposal from my US Airways brothers. A pilot making $150/hr at 85 hous a month times 12 months would earn $153,000. By increasing the monthly flight hours to 90 and applying the 12.5% paycut the same pilot would make $141,750. A difference of only $11,250, or a 7.35% paycut. They will also provide 17,500 more flight hours of productivity to the company per month. That equates to 206 pilots either no longer needed or 206 pilots who will be further delayed on their recall. The average flight hours/month at most majors on in the upper 70's. As a furloughed U pilot for over 2.5 years now, I do not see our union showing any concern for the furloughed pilot. Sure they'll auction off mainline flying to companies like Mesa, Chittaqua, and Transstates and say I can take 1 of every 2 seats of my flying that they gave away, at these lower than industry standard paying companies. Or I could go to this new Midatlantic, which as of today still doesn't have a working agreement. Mainline union can spit out a proposal for themselves, but can't finallize a Midatlantic contract that has been in the making for almost 2 years. I understand US Airway pilots are trying to save their jobs, and as history has shown they are great at looking out for #1, but they have abandoned a large chunck (almost 1800 pilots) of their so called brothers. While other airlines, who are hurting too, try to at least work on a schedule to recall their pilots, US Airways pilot group has found yet another way to keep us on the street.

 

[DAL737FO]

General,
Don't plan on getting any from the ASA or CMR pilots. We have subsidized your pay long enough.

This statement is getting so tiring that I had to reply. It seems most of you guys at CMR and ASA point out that our company shows you guys as showing a profit. That is an ability they, meaning Delta management, have since they do all the books. Tell me how much profit you would have shown if you were an independant organization? You know pay for your on reservation centers and the likes. I bet not very profitable. But I can show you below where Big D is getting a lot of our debt. From our 10-k statement:

"During 2004, we expect capital expenditures to be approximately $1.2 billion, covering $600 million for aircraft expenditures, which includes approximately $500 million for the acquisition of regional jet aircraft"

$ 500 mil capital expenditures for RJs.Fact.

"We have approximately $1.0 billion of debt maturities due during 2004, ... These maturities include approximately $300 million due under short-term financing arrangements associated with our acquisition of regional jet aircraft."

So we, meaning mainline, finance $500 million this year for jets we, meaning mainline pilots, don't even get to fly AND about 1/3 of our debt for 2004 is due to RJ financing. So tell me again how you subsidize the mainline pilots?

 

[BRA]

I think some forget that USair had DCA closed on them for like 2 months wasn't it? How would American be right now if LGA was closed for a month? Or delta if SLC was closed for 2 months? Usair had some horrible luck as well in all of this. I think the average age of mainline usair pilots is 53....so i guess that means on average usair pilots are worried about the next 7 years. Might be part of the reason delta appears more concerned about its furloughees compared to usairways. Would it be safe to say that about half of the 1800 furloughed at usair have moved on to better things and will not be coming back? Half of that number would be 900 waiting for the call back to mainline. Just random thoughts.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

This statement is getting so tiring that I had to reply. It seems most of you guys at CMR and ASA point out that our company shows you guys as showing a profit. That is an ability they, meaning Delta management, have since they do all the books. Tell me how much profit you would have shown if you were an independant organization? You know pay for your on reservation centers and the likes. I bet not very profitable. But I can show you below where Big D is getting a lot of our debt. From our 10-k statement:

"During 2004, we expect capital expenditures to be approximately $1.2 billion, covering $600 million for aircraft expenditures, which includes approximately $500 million for the acquisition of regional jet aircraft"

$ 500 mil capital expenditures for RJs.Fact.

"We have approximately $1.0 billion of debt maturities due during 2004, ... These maturities include approximately $300 million due under short-term financing arrangements associated with our acquisition of regional jet aircraft."

So we, meaning mainline, finance $500 million this year for jets we, meaning mainline pilots, don't even get to fly AND about 1/3 of our debt for 2004 is due to RJ financing. So tell me again how you subsidize the mainline pilots?

All due respect, I'm not sure you have demonstrated that we are not. You pose some questions that there are really no answers to at least for those of us outside the inner sanctum.

Your premise seems to be that there is a Delta management conspiracy to make us appear profitable when we are not. That is entirely possible, but it is also possible that we are in fact making money. If this is the case why should we take pay cuts?

As for Delta paying for our airplanes, it is entirely possible that the cost of those airplanes has been accounted for at our end of the equation and not left for mainline to pay for from theirs as you suggest.

 

[jbucpt]

They are fighting for their lives over there, and bringing down the rest of the industry.

this has to be the most naive and hypocritical statement from a pilot who is going to give back a majority of his "industry leading" contract.....





-------

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

 

[DAL737FO]

XRMEFLYER,

I never said that you weren't profitable, I said there is no way to tell as Delta does the books but if I had to bet it would be that you weren't. There is no doubt that Leo and his boy "RJ" Reid loaded the company with RJ debt. Don't get me wrong the RJ served it's purpose very well right after 911 when no one else had them and we had an aramada. The only numbers that I can find are public and they are in our filings which show that for the past few years we have financed billions of dollars of capex and interest for airplanes that we do not fly. I've never said a word about this because it is the nature of the relationship of our company, however for people to continually harp that they are subsidizing my salary, not mine because I'm furloughed but you get the idea, gets real tiring. The only way CMR or ASA could claim to be a profitable organization is if they were stand only companies with separate books.

B-727 freight dawg
used to be a Delta Pilot

 

[XRMEFLYER]

XRMEFLYER,

I never said that you weren't profitable, I said there is no way to tell as Delta does the books but if I had to bet it would be that you weren't. There is no doubt that Leo and his boy "RJ" Reid loaded the company with RJ debt. Don't get me wrong the RJ served it's purpose very well right after 911 when no one else had them and we had an aramada. The only numbers that I can find are public and they are in our filings which show that for the past few years we have financed billions of dollars of capex and interest for airplanes that we do not fly. I've never said a word about this because it is the nature of the relationship of our company, however for people to continually harp that they are subsidizing my salary, not mine because I'm furloughed but you get the idea, gets real tiring. The only way CMR or ASA could claim to be a profitable organization is if they were stand only companies with separate books.

B-727 freight dawg
used to be a Delta Pilot

When you refer to the RJ debt that the company has been "loaded" with are you suggesting that the revenue generated at DCI by those planes is insufficient to cover their cost?

 

[InclusiveScope]

This statement is getting so tiring that I had to reply. It seems most of you guys at CMR and ASA point out that our company shows you guys as showing a profit. That is an ability they, meaning Delta management, have since they do all the books. Tell me how much profit you would have shown if you were an independant organization? You know pay for your on reservation centers and the likes. I bet not very profitable. But I can show you below where Big D is getting a lot of our debt. From our 10-k statement:

"During 2004, we expect capital expenditures to be approximately $1.2 billion, covering $600 million for aircraft expenditures, which includes approximately $500 million for the acquisition of regional jet aircraft"

$ 500 mil capital expenditures for RJs.Fact.

"We have approximately $1.0 billion of debt maturities due during 2004, ... These maturities include approximately $300 million due under short-term financing arrangements associated with our acquisition of regional jet aircraft."

So we, meaning mainline, finance $500 million this year for jets we, meaning mainline pilots, don't even get to fly AND about 1/3 of our debt for 2004 is due to RJ financing. So tell me again how you subsidize the mainline pilots?

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2.../bts016_04.html
Once again DAL737FO, go to this link.
You will see that ACA, AirWisc,XJT, and SKYW actually have more revenue per seat and higher yields than ASA and CMR. These carriers are not wholly owned subsidiaries. If they are profitable as stand alone companies, why is so hard to imagine that ASA and CMR are not? In fact one could argue that our numbers might be better if we were indepenent. Take a look at the numbers and then report back...
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2.../bts016_04.html

 

[satpak77]

please

General

Since when are you a member of the DAL finance committee or sitting in on meetings with the CFO? Are you a Harvard MBA?

Actually you just drive the freaking bus from A to B, so save the Econ 101 and Econ 401 Advanced lessons, seat revenue, all that horsesh1t. Gimme a break.



Go back to what you get paid your huge salary for, to release the parking brake, and get from A to B, and re-engage the parking brake.

Something your "commuter" brothers do 3,4,6 times a day, in all sorts of weather, at a fraction of what you get paid

save your garbage for the local flight school where people go "ooooohhhh he is a real airline pilot" and you can impress 21 year old kids with your captains hat.

please

 

[General Lee]

Satpak77,


OK, what? Will you be one of the "kids" with wonder on your face? I''ll tell you are great story.... And guess what? I flew the "commuter" thing too and got paid half of what you do(8 years ago)---so get off your high horse.


Jbucpt,

I didn't mean it the way you think I meant it, and there was no way to edit it after 10 minutes due to the new format. Re-read it and think objectively----I was saying UNFORTUNATELY as they fight for their survival--the rest of us will continue to have our wages lowered. It is the truth, and I feel sorry for them and know it could be us next. If you want to read into it more than that--go ahead.

Bye Bye--General Lee