Usairways no more profit sharing?

[Turtle21]

What did the Marines teach you about Integrity? Honor? You are a poor example of what it means to be a Marine without those two qualities.

Really?

And this post is an example of the mindset on your side of the fence?

Don't be bashful.. use the "S" word next.

 

[Turtle21]

I did like that movie and some of my instructors in Pensacola flew the jets for the movie and it was fun to hear their stories about it. Charlie was my chocolate lab that I had to put down a few years back and I do miss him. I think you are failing to understand that if I backed down on my position I would consider that a lack of integrity. Now I know we have a big dissagreement but I don't think the west or east pilots have a lack of integrity. We agreed to a process that we thought, wrongly, would follow our unions policy. We were wrong. We believe that putting a 2 month person ahead of a 16.4 year person is wrong, a gigantic windfall for one of the parties and was against our union policy and we have enough integrity to fight it. It would have been a huge lack of integrity to tell our 16.4 year people that their service to the company means nothing and you will fly FO for the 2 month pilots. I sincerely hope a nic like award never happens to you! Just think about it for a minute you work at a company for over 16 years and they make the new hires your captain. Please don't tell me you wouldn't fight it.

The miscalculation you make is understandable, for a Marine... In the Marines "integrity" is not relative to one's personal pay versus in ALPA pilots judge integrity by WIIFM.

 

[Bringupthebird]

No, Skipper Chuck tries to spread around his lack of integrity with phrases like "tell me you wouldn't fight it", which is just another way to say ,"if I can get away with it, it must be ok."

Semper Fail.

 

[Carl S.]

The East pilots are always fighting past wars (i.e.- ALPA, NIC,LOA93) and not future battles. Time to move on East pilots, what is next, people who turned you down in high school? You control where we go, not the West. When or if we tie up to American you will learn how West pilots felt when we were tied up to USAirways and had no input or choice.

P.S.- Legoland CA has the coldest waterpark in the US even with all the kid pee in it!!!

 

[Turtle21]

No, Skipper Chuck tries to spread around his lack of integrity with phrases like "tell me you wouldn't fight it", which is just another way to say ,"if I can get away with it, it must be ok."

Semper Fail.

Fight for what you think is right and be man enough to hold your tongue about your opponents, even if you are not winning.. Or be immature and lash out at Marines and the motto "Always Faithful".

Your choice.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Skipper Chuck chose to dishonor the Marines that preceded him by participating in a coordinated attempt to circumvent the obligations that go with the arbitration award. Further, he justifies it by implying anyone who thought they could get away with it would do the same.

Men honor their obligations and in turn honor their legacy. Cowardice is always indefensible.

 

[charlie2]

No, it integrated the SENIORITY (not longevity) of each side into one list, just as it was supposed to. Nicolau made an exception for the widebody equipment, which was unfair to the AWA senior people because of their superior inteillect they deserved our wide body flying ha ha ha ha ha ha how are they enjoyning that so far? but they accepted it without all the drama that the east is so fond of.

The circumstances that lead to a 16 yr pilot being furloughed should not be borne by the pilots of the other side. Congratulations!!!! You are finally understanding it's not our fault that managenet screws us and we should not use our managents screwing us against each other so STOP trying to be my captain until I retire...it wont be fun for you sonny.

And you know that the true upgrade delay that would accompany the Nic would average less than 2 years. These are facts cause AOL said so. In other words, by now it would have been a wash.

You may very well be right and get your windfall fall nic in 5 years.

Twice.

Enjoy it!!!!!!! You wanted my job and you'll get it you just have to wait until all the appeals are done... you know the law. The nic is not law.

 

[charlie2]

So, you don't want the leverage that comes from unity. Instead you grab what you want in defiance of an agreed-to arbitration.

Semper Fail.

Sorry I just had the trip from hell and didn't even turn on the lap top but have a few hours now to continue the discussion. There will never be "unity" with us because you want the unacceptable...your children being my captain. Whith no unity there is no leverage and with unity there is very little leverage.

 

[charlie2]

You've been lied to for 7 years and yet you still send in your dues to keep the lie machine fed.

The facts regarding upgrade are pretty plain and if you can legitimately refute them, go right ahead. Whether you want to admit it or not, the NIC is not as onerous as your USAPA leadership wants you to believe. Their power is a result of you believing in their boogeymen.

I know you'd want to be part of a strong union where the leadership can get the rank and file to support them unquestionably, and as a result they hold incredible influence with the company to improve the pay and working conditions for it members.

But you chose USAPA instead. Feel better?

Someone with integrty does not lie and ALPA clearly lied to us for years. "No windfall" in a merger! Thanks ALPA for that one. Go ahead Birdie say a new hire being the captain of a pilot with over 16 years of service is not a "windfall" I know all your "integrity" stuff but say on this board a 20 something year old new hire getting to be the captain of a pilot with over 16 years service is "NOT" a windfall. If you say it at least have the integrity and balls to explain what you believe a windfall is...and it has to make sense or it doesn't count.

 

[charlie2]

The East pilots are always fighting past wars (i.e.- ALPA, NIC,LOA93) and not future battles. Time to move on East pilots, what is next, people who turned you down in high school? You control where we go, not the West. When or if we tie up to American you will learn how West pilots felt when we were tied up to USAirways and had no input or choice.

P.S.- Legoland CA has the coldest waterpark in the US even with all the kid pee in it!!!

Hey Carl! I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at. In my personal life I've sued (and won) people who screwed me "in the past". If you think someone wrongs you and you don't have any other recourse but the courts you would fold like a cheap tent and walk away? If I told a judge they were going to screw me next week what do you think would happen?

We won the ALPA fight because of their lack of integrity and voted them off the property, we may very lose with the nic but we are fighting this in the present and everyone knows we lost LOA 93 (in the past) because ALPA signed us up for a never ending LOA...WHY? ALPA national approved that screwing!

You do know that the "Term Sheet" your CEO negatiated with another corporations' unionized pilot group is worse than LOA 93 except with the pay rates that are ok but not great.

Like the Ninth Cicuit Court said you can't sue (and win) a person (or union) for a "future" screwing because it isn't "Ripe" or it did't happen yet. Maybe in the future you will be able to sue a person for something that they may have done to do next week but you can't now.

I disagree with you about AA because it is very different. Us two losing airlines were represented by the same national union with no merger policy (except the no windfall part ha ha ha ha ha) and there is a new law about merging employee groups represented by differant ones.

 

[charlie2]

Fight for what you think is right and be man enough to hold your tongue about your opponents, even if you are not winning.. Or be immature and lash out at Marines and the motto "Always Faithful".

Your choice.

Thanks Turtle21. Semper Fi and in this proffession we are Semper Gumby...always flexible!!!!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Nothing in your past 3 responses to me approximates the truth. You know that the merging of two lists into one per the Nic will not keep any working pilot at the date of the merger an permanent F/O. The top 517 of your guys got a gift from Nicolau and the senior AWA pilots accepted that. The rest were merged top with top, middle with middle and bottom with bottom.

Why not come clean and say that the 16 year guy was on the bottom of the US east list as was the bottom AWA pilot (who was not a 20 something by the way)? The rest of the pilots were not on property and had no claim to a working pilot's job. Again, that was the old US issue and the consequences should not be borne by a west pilot.

ALPA's merger procedure was to allow the two sides to negotiate. The east did not negotiate, they tried to dictate. ALPA was not about to risk being sued by one side or the other, so they shifted the burden to a mutually chosen arbitrator. Again, the East would not make a rational offer, so they were shocked and dismayed that Nicoalu did exactly what he was charged with - merging the seniorities of both lists into one. But it gets better. When ALPA sees the risks of losing the east are worse than the risk of being sued by the AWA pilots (who have played by the rules completely from the beginning) they hold a meeting at Wye River to try and arm twist the west into negotiating against themselves inorder to take one for ALPA. I don't have to remind you how that one turned out.

Just because the phantom 16-yr pilot had to endure hardship doesn't mean that not forcing the AWA pilot to endure them as well is necessarily a windfall. The bottom active pilot is still the bottom active pilot regardless of how many years it took for him to get there at his respective airline.

The integrity issue comes when a bright young lad named Stephen Bradford has an Econoline Epiphany and dreams up a plan to use the superior numbers that the east has to negate the award and keep the west from achieving any raises or moving up. And then they play chicken---- games like suing west pilots under bogus RICO laws and getting the entire pilot group put under an injunction because they based their entire leadership strategy on emotion. All the while west pilots have to fund this ill-conceived and ill-executed abomination while paying laywers to hold USAPA leadership accountable to the law when their own members won't.

So which will it be - Defend the indefensible, or list the many accomplishments of USAPA?

 

[charlie2]

Skipper Chuck chose to dishonor the Marines that preceded him by participating in a coordinated attempt to circumvent the obligations that go with the arbitration award. Further, he justifies it by implying anyone who thought they could get away with it would do the same.

Men honor their obligations and in turn honor their legacy. Cowardice is always indefensible.

A man of honor would never ever look at his family and say a man named nic says a bunch of youngsters are going to be my captains and make more than me so we have to cut back. The proof is you are not my captain.

Don't confuse my service to this country with this debate. Tell me all about your service and only then will we change the subject. My guess is you never did and when you upgraded you had some FO's who just got discharged and YOU are superior to them. Were you a coward? You are their captain because while they were serving you were getting hired by premier airlines like AWA. I bet you never even thanked them for their service CAPTAIN.

 

[charlie2]

Nothing in your past 3 responses to me approximates the truth. You know that the merging of two lists into one per the Nic will not keep any working pilot at the date of the merger an permanent F/O. You really can predict the future? WOW you must be a rich man or girl! The top 517 of your guys got a gift from Nicolau and the senior AWA pilots accepted that. Please don't tell me that any of your guys thought they would just go to the 330 or 76 after the merger"? The rest were merged top with top, middle with middle and bottom with bottom.

Why not come clean and say that the 16 year guy was on the bottom of the US east list as was the bottom AWA pilot (who was not a 20 something by the way)? You are right with this fact but I will never understand your enthusiasm for our very highly paid clerks who make a "decision" to use us as pawns to suddenly park hundreds of aircraft (2011 to 2003) furloughing more than two thousand of us pilots and shred our scope and then not even be very willing to have a jet for jobs program with the shredding of the scope. The rest of the pilots were not on property and had no claim to a working pilot's job. That has never been true. Again, that was the old US issue and the consequences should not be borne by a west pilot. And they won't!

ALPA's merger procedure was to allow the two sides to negotiate. The east did not negotiate, they tried to dictate. ALPA was not about to risk being sued by one side or the other, so they shifted the burden to a mutually chosen arbitrator. Again, the East would not make a rational offer, so they were shocked and dismayed that Nicoalu did exactly what he was charged with - merging the seniorities of both lists into one. But it gets better. When ALPA sees the risks of losing the east are worse than the risk of being sued by the AWA pilots (who have played by the rules completely from the beginning) they hold a meeting at Wye River to try and arm twist the west into negotiating against themselves inorder to take one for ALPA. I don't have to remind you how that one turned out.

That was an attempt to compromise and the west reps walked out within minutes and from what I heard it pissed off Prater.

Just because the phantom 16-yr pilot had to endure hardship doesn't mean that not forcing the AWA pilot to endure them as well is necessarily a windfall. The bottom active pilot is still the bottom active pilot regardless of how many years it took for him to get there at his respective airline.

We very much disagree!!!!

The integrity issue comes when a bright young lad named Stephen Bradford has an Econoline Epiphany and dreams up a plan to use the superior numbers that the east has to negate the award and keep the west from achieving any raises or moving up. And then they play chicken---- games like suing west pilots under bogus RICO laws and getting the entire pilot group put under an injunction meaningless because they based their entire leadership strategy on emotion. All the while west pilots have to fund this ill-conceived and ill-executed abomination while paying laywers to hold USAPA leadership accountable to the law yes we are waiting for some law decisions aren't we...doesn't it suck that it takes so long for these judges and arbitrators to just make a decision!when their own members won't.

So which will it be - Defend the indefensible, or list the many accomplishments of USAPA?

Well we are defending what we think is defensible!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Come on, now let's have answers. You still have yet to tell me why you think 1700 west pilots should have to wait to get a raise until a sufficient number of east pilots are satisfied that they have gorged themselves at the trough and, once sated are ready to walk away from the damage they have created.

Don't try to blame some "clerks" or ALPA or the west or Nicolau or any one of the endless phalanx of boogiemen you guys trot out. Just make a convincing argument that might makes right even if it causes innocent west pilot's families to suffer. C'mon, it can't be that difficult.