UsAirways and EMB-190

[synchoff]

Hah! Well, it's fair to say that I'm not changing any minds here!

Look guys, I see two possible outcomes here:

Regionals keep flying bigger and bigger aircraft for what was once "unthinkably low" wages (but relatively high by the regional standards). This is good for pilots who work at regionals.

OR

Majors realize the "fat" days are over, suck it up, and start flying for what companies are willing/able to pay --i.e. what they're paying the regionals. (either by choice or BK judge fiat) THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT now: evidence = USAir's and JetBlue's historically DIRT cheap salaries for the E-190. This favors those at majors.

The same pressures driving salaries down will also drive down QOL issues. Examples: United pre-bankruptcy pilots flew 40 hrs per month. Their business plan now says 95. Hell, I only HAVE to fly 70 here at Mesa, and 85 is the norm. Pensions - gone. Free flight bennies -- scaled back big time at most carriers. And so forth.

This is not the industry it was 40 years ago. Or even 20. Everyone wants to work 10 days a month and pull in $200,000+ a year visiting exotic locales with super hot, flirty flight attendants. For the most part, these days are drawing to and end. Welcome to the Wal-Martization of the airlines.

I started this job wanting the big jet and the big $$$. I've had enough exposure to seriously consider whether these scaled down expectations are good enough for me to stay in here (they are). All I'm saying is, I'm not going to cry and pine for the old days that are gone forever.

 

[synchoff]

Oh, and please stop implying this is "my" fault. I fly the airplane, I pay my dues to ALPA, I write my congressmen to tell them about FAR's I think are B.S.

That's really all I can do.

 

[Taco Rocket]

Synchoff

Don't forget that you are not entitled to an opinion: You are a regional pilot and thus should STFU and take whatever you are given. sarcasm

I agree with a lot of what you've said, especially the comment about name on the side of the plane this week. In fact, our Taco Rockets are in paint shop right now, as you well know.

By definition, Mesa will be a major airline some time next year, like it or not boys and girls. You can choose to ignore the JOs and Chautauquas of the industry and demand that this or that plane fly here or there, or you can wake up and realize JOs not going away.

Go ahead and sign an "agreement" (like that means anything in this industry) to fly 190s at mainline Big Mesa (oops I mean the new USAirways). Economics will dictate who "should" fly these planes.

 

[JetMonkey]

Hah! Well, it's fair to say that I'm not changing any minds here!

Look guys, I see two possible outcomes here:

Regionals keep flying bigger and bigger aircraft for what was once "unthinkably low" wages (but relatively high by the regional standards). This is good for pilots who work at regionals.

Ok, I've had enough of this nonsense from you and I can't stand by watching anymore. You, I would venture to say are at what is the "crossroads" at the regionals. When I was there I'd see guys after a few years there start to contemplate staying. After the new hire "wow, boy look at me I'm flying a jet" wares off and then a couple of years go by, then you make a litte more with a good schedule, then upgrade comes, more $$$ and finally throw in a marriage, house, maybe your first child and NOW, you start to think, gee I'm still here I haven't gotten hired by a major, man, I don't think I can take the pay hit, you know, maybe this isn't so bad here. I was getting to that point too but I decided to suck it up and sacrafice for a couple of years and leave for the big prise that hopefully lies ahead. What your saying is basically hogwash! its NOT good for regional pilots WHO WANT to move on some day, if you are thinking about staying where you're at or have already decided to stay, then that's fine for you. But don't force your rehoric down every other regional guy's throat. The more bigger, and badder planes as you call it regionals get, the less and less chance guys and gals will have to finally realize their dream of flying for a major.

Don't get me wrong there a lot of good places out their to make a career out of, I came from one and would've been happy to stay, but I got lucky. And btw If you haven't worked for a major, how do you really know you'll be happier staying where your at?

 

[Tim47SIP]

The line in the sand

whether or not U/AWA orders any 190s is really irrelevant. The point is the line of scope at U/AWA was held at 90 seats. That alone is a victory for the U/AWA pilots in my book.


Well, I think you are right, and the line in the sand is being drawn. 99 seats or less at the Regionals and 100 or greater at Mainline. I believe the 190 has the capability to carry 106 pax. I remember Surplus stating this exact number a year or so ago, and it sure seems that this is what the industry is leading to. I know there is pressure in some areas to hold the line at 70 seats, but there is no management that wants to survive in todays environment that will ad hear to a 70 seat restriction. 99 seats opens many doors for management (i.e. 70 coach, 8 F/C = 78) and I think that they will agree to this number without much pressure.

 

[synchoff]

Ok, I've had enough of this nonsense from you and I can't stand by watching anymore.
When I was there I'd see guys after a few years there start to contemplate staying. . . . ., maybe this isn't so bad here.

The more bigger, and badder planes as you call it regionals get, the less and less chance guys and gals will have to finally realize their dream of flying for a major.

And btw If you haven't worked for a major, how do you really know you'll be happier staying where your at?

Presumably, you fly for a major. Good for you (I really mean that)! But how does it make you feel to see pilots at JetBlue and USAir flying 100 seat aircraft for "regional wages"? Not happy, I'm sure, but you'll take it anyway. Well, I feel the same way. I'll take it, right here at the airline I'm flying with with 10 years seniority.

The "gee-whiz" factor goes away, no doubt about it. "Bigger and badder" planes was tounge-in-cheek. On the cockpit side of the door, the only difference is the schedules and the paychecks. I make 80k a year . . . enough for a wife, kid, mortgage and retirement. I could give a rats about "cooler" airplanes.

I don't know if a major would be better. But I'm happy where I am, and the future looks bright . . . at my regional! I like it here, I like to see the expanding network, the years of consistent profitable quarters, the larger payscales. . . REGARDLESS . . my punching a clock every day won't make a difference one way or the other. Relax, and accept that there are pilots who enjoy life at the regionals, and we're INCAPABLE of screwing that up for anybody. Above our paygrade and all that.

What WILL make a difference is if ALPA comes in and takes away my CRJ900, or the CRJ700, or the CRJ200, and tells me that I have to either get hired somewhere else or fly a turboprop for 20k a year. SCREW THAT.

ALPA had the chance to scope out jets at regionals, and they missed the boat. Now they want the planes and the same $$$ we're getting to fly them, and are gonna do their damdest to take them away. Thank goodness they're going bankrupt, otherwise they might pull it off.

 

[AutoBus]

Synchoff

By definition, Mesa will be a major airline some time next year, like it or not boys and girls. You can choose to ignore the JOs and Chautauquas of the industry and demand that this or that plane fly here or there, or you can wake up and realize JOs not going away.

Go ahead and sign an "agreement" (like that means anything in this industry) to fly 190s at mainline Big Mesa (oops I mean the new USAirways). Economics will dictate who "should" fly these planes.

Actually, Mesa is not even an airline. Once again they are a provider of subcontracted lift. Mesa is running scared, most of those pretty little RJ's are going to be shed from the route systems of the major airlines. They are going to be replaced by 100 seat jets flown by mainline pilots or 30 to 50 seat turboprops flown by regionals under a pro-rate agreement (not fee per departure)

Why do you think MESA is opening up a route system in Hawaii? Survival! Of course the employees at MESA are concerned about all this, they wonder why JO is getting into RISKY (real airline) flying in Hawaii, they are going to have to worry about on-time performance, ticket yield and fuel prices,they wonder why can't we just get more SAFE Fee for departure flying.

Because the days of the majors funding profits at the regional partners is over.

This sheltered little world that regional's have been living in is going to be over soon.

 

[Full of LUV]

Good for now

Presumably, you fly for a major. Good for you (I really mean that)! But how does it make you feel to see pilots at JetBlue and USAir flying 100 seat aircraft for "regional wages"? Not happy, I'm sure, but you'll take it anyway. Well, I feel the same way. I'll take it, right here at the airline I'm flying with with 10 years seniority.

The "gee-whiz" factor goes away, no doubt about it. "Bigger and badder" planes was tounge-in-cheek. On the cockpit side of the door, the only difference is the schedules and the paychecks. I make 80k a year . . . enough for a wife, kid, mortgage and retirement. I could give a rats about "cooler" airplanes.

I don't know if a major would be better. But I'm happy where I am, and the future looks bright . . . at my regional! I like it here, I like to see the expanding network, the years of consistent profitable quarters, the larger payscales. . . REGARDLESS . . my punching a clock every day won't make a difference one way or the other. Relax, and accept that there are pilots who enjoy life at the regionals, and we're INCAPABLE of screwing that up for anybody. Above our paygrade and all that.

What WILL make a difference is if ALPA comes in and takes away my CRJ900, or the CRJ700, or the CRJ200, and tells me that I have to either get hired somewhere else or fly a turboprop for 20k a year. SCREW THAT.

ALPA had the chance to scope out jets at regionals, and they missed the boat. Now they want the planes and the same $$$ we're getting to fly them, and are gonna do their damdest to take them away. Thank goodness they're going bankrupt, otherwise they might pull it off.

Synchoff,
I think that IMO what you are missing is that this is not a static industry and without a brand name and scope clause, you are replacable by the next lowest bidder. Your FUTURE will be brighter if you get hired by a major (I mean a carrier with their own brand name and scope clause). You may be comfortable now with your 10 years of seniority, but without the move I predict it will only be a matter of time before someone does what you do cheaper or if you want to continue, you will be cheaper.
When the majors first went to the concessions pot post 9/11, they were able to use that event to replace ALOT of domestic service that had been performed on the 72's and 73-200's etc with regionals, and by and large the majors MEC's went along with furloughs and givebacks to appease the top half of their seniority lists by keeping the A funds and other bennies that really helped the senior guys.
This time the majors are asking for concessions or will be through the BK judge and the precedent has been set by UAL that the pensions are toast anyway, in addition to the fact that additional furloughs will effect people with sizeable seniority in addition to the fact that in DAL's case the top 2500 took early retirement (Nearly 30% of the current seniority list). I think this spells that the major MEC's will do whatever it takes to keep this flying on property, if it means matching MESA's rates on a 100 seat plane, so be it, at least the major MEC's will stop the furlough train or slow it.
Would you rather be a new hire on the 190 at UAL post bk with a future or on the CRJ70 at mesa. That will be a personal decision, and I hope it works out for you and your family.
Ciao!

 

[synchoff]

Actually, Mesa is not even an airline.

Why do you think MESA is opening up a route system in Hawaii? Survival!

Because the days of the majors funding profits at the regional partners is over.

This sheltered little world that regional's have been living in is going to be over soon.

Ha! We agree on something! Mesa is a leasing company (planes, pilots, mechanics, etc.), not an airline!

Yes, Hawaii is a way for Mesa to get it's feet wet at being a real airline. (but if you knew what was coming, you'd realize it isn't all that risky)

Regional partners will continue to prosper as long as we can do more for less. Every heavily unionized industry in the country outsources as much as it can because big, powerful, institutionalized unions are very expensive. (Mesa's ALPA is totally impotent) The airlines are no different. Outsourcing makes perfect sense in this environment.

If the majors come down to our level, we're toast. But I don't think that's likely - - see preceeding paragraph.

Remember, major's aren't tossing money at regionals because they like to lose money . . . they do it because we made them a TON of $$$ . . . and still do. Mesa gets TONS of business anytime a major goes into bankruptcy . . . because they want to keep costs DOWN, not throw away money.

. . . . rumor has it 100 Mesa CRJ900's will be coming to a Delta station near you . . . . and United might like some too . . .

 

[synchoff]

Synchoff,
I think that IMO what you are missing is that this is not a static industry and without a brand name and scope clause, you are replacable by the next lowest bidder. Your FUTURE will be brighter if you get hired by a major (I mean a carrier with their own brand name and scope clause). Ciao!

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. This is mitigated somewhat by Mesa diversifying (or whoring itself out to anyone . . . whatever) among many carriers (3 now, plus our own brand name in New Mexico and soon, Hawaii) and by long-term contracts.

Future MIGHT be brighter at a "major" . . . but EVERY pilot who ever worked at Mesa and then went to USAir has been permanently furloughed. They are now my first officers, along with some United pilots. (I TAKE NO PLEASURE FROM THIS, just stating a fact)

Life is risky; you want to throw the dice at a major. . . but for now, there are VERY few majors I'd be willing to work for.

I stand by my basic premise, that larger aircraft at regionals are good for regional pilots.

But, I'm very keenly aware THIS IS A MINORITY OPINION.

(you don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps . . .)